You just won the first Hearthstone World Championship, now after some days, how does it feel to be the Champion?
Feels amazing to be rewarded for all the hard work I have put in. But I am not finished yet, and I feel I have so much more to show. I plan on working even harder to prove I am one of the best in Hearthstone and will stand the test of time.
So I feel motivated.
That sounds promising.
So what did you parents say when you told them you just won $100,000 for playing a video game? Do they still think it's a scam?
Hahaha. They started to come around when they saw me on twitch and such. I really want to be able to change the way people see videogames. I really want to help make people understand that it is a way passionate people can make money and live their lives doing something they love. But for right now a lot of people do not fully understand it.
What will you do with the prize money? Any specific plans?
I am just going to save it/invest it. And keep working and going to school like I was before and one day hopefully have it help me into retirement, haha.
"I feel I have so much more to show. I plan on working even harder to prove I am one of the best in Hearthstone, and will stand the test of time."
Sounds like a plan.
Did you have any previous experience with esports or TCG/CCGs? If so, which ones?
I have no real esports experience at this level, but I have played a lot of videogames casually like StarCraft BroodWar, WarCraft 3, Path of Exile, Diablo 2, Starcraft 2, and a lot of other games. And I have never played a TCG/CCG before.
What about poker?
I've played with family and friends, but nothing seriously competitively.
So the current Hearthstone World Champion doesn't have any real prior experience to card games, that’s interesting!
As you can see, people, there is hope for everyone!
Yeah, that’s something I truly believe in. I really think anyone that has passion can achieve whatever they want if they work for it. I have spent many, many, many, hours studying every aspect of the game with spreadsheets and learning math concepts so I can understand it better. Just working for anything that even gave me a 0.1% better chance of winning. And if someone shares the same passion I believe they could be a world champion as well.
That's the topic I wanted to talk to you about the most actually! From what I heard you probably are the most prepared player in Hearthstone as far as tournaments go. How did you get into all that? Making spreadsheets, learning math concepts etc?
I wanted to win. So I searched on the internet things like how to calculate probabilities of mulligans, and such. From there I started building spreadsheets for each of my decks and making my individual decks as consistent as possible. Then as I kept learning more and understanding things better I began finding optimal ways to tweak decks for specific matchups to perform better for the Bo5 with one ban and use my ban to the most advantage I could.
Then when I had my lineup set I ran 86 tournaments with eight people (just eight high legend people from my friend list, most of the time different people) and played in that format and experimented with how I was going to ban and such and really tested the numbers. So every single match for Blizzcon was basically something I had done already.
Photo: IGN
"I have spent many, many, many, hours studying every aspect of the game with spreadsheets and learning math concepts so I can understand it better. Just working for anything that even gave me a 0.1% better chance of winning."
Yeah, I heard about those infamous 8-man tournaments, maybe I can participate in them some day too. *dream*
I mean anyone that I play against and I think played a cool deck or played well I usually add them to my friend list and just literally invite random people from my friend list that are online, so maybe.
Did you read any specific literature on probability, calculation and the like you can recommend? I'm probably not the only one that's curious about that.
I didn't really read a book or anything. I just basically Googled anything I couldn't figure out on my own and then tried to learn it. And I believe that almost anything could be understood in a methodical way. So I never accepted anything as impossible to figure out, and went to great lengths to understand things that people often don't bother even looking at.
For example you can estimate a card value based on the usefulness it has in the amount of situations present in a game against a specific deck of 30 cards. You can give a card a numerical range of value based on the matchups and its role and determine how useful a card is for a value game plan and the same goes for tempo game plans. You can describe your game plan more in depth than just control or aggro and use these values to support your method.
Like value cards that control the board until turn 5 then transition to a tempo plan where you push damage. So you can define a plan, assign values to individual cards and then calculate the probabilities for when you draw the cards. It can seem a bit abstract but it’s more or less a progressive understanding that built over time from looking at a ton of stuff.
I already see the readers minds blown from just that, which is amazing! Really interesting stuff.
Haha, the game is a lot more complicated than it seems. But even still like all of that doesn't improve your chances of winning by that much, but being able to win just a bit more consistently is what its all about to become the best.
Can you give a few examples of how the game is more complicated than it seems?
A lot of matchups in the game have counter intuitive ways that you need to play in order to win. Especially in control mirrors like warrior vs warrior or paladin vs paladin where the ideal strategy often times includes holding cards for specific events to occur and putting your opponent in specific situations that they must play in a certain way that flows right into your plan.
"I believe almost anything could be understood in a methodical way. So I never accepted anything as impossible to figure out, and went to great lengths to understand things that people often don't bother even looking at."
So in an actual game, how fast are you calculating your plays and odds? And how far do you plan and calculate ahead when making plays?
Depends on the matchup. But often times there are like three ways to play the matchup in my head before the game even starts, and then I see my hand and determine which route I want to take for the entire game (tempo push early, tempo push mid, late game push, or fatigue them). So, three of those plans are generally available for any deck, and based on the starting hand and the class matchup I mulligan for one of those specific routes.
When my opponent plays their first card, it is usually possible to identify a common archetype of their class that they are playing and then I adjust the plan according to the archetype. As far as playing around swing cards and calculating odds of them having specific outs I can usually tell what cards my opponent has in their hand after about halfway through the game based on what they mouse over or simply just how they are playing so it makes it easy to just calculate for the topdecks.
When you are playing a tournament, who is your real opponent, the player sitting across of you or the numbers?
The opponent is always the player sitting across from you. Hearthstone has RNG but a majority of time the better player wins.
You are researching the meta a lot and tinkering with your decks to give yourself the best chances to beat the meta, but how do you handle surprising decks you most likely didn’t prepare for? Like Kranich and his OTK Warrior at Blizzcon?
That deck was surprising, but it was a known archetype of warrior for a while now, so I just adjusted my gameplan after seeing the [card]Inner Rage[/card] card used on like turn 3 or 4 and was able to beat it easily with hunter.
How important do you think the mulligan phase in a game is? Is understanding the mulligans what separates the good from the bad players?
Mulliganing is important because it is a time where you decide how you will play the entire match. It definitely is a deciding factor when determining if a play is good or bad, because some players do not have a gameplan for each archetype of each matchup, or even for each class matchup.
When my opponent plays their first card, it is usually possible to identify a common archetype of their class that they are playing and then I adjust the plan according to the archetype. As far as playing around swing cards and calculating odds of them having specific outs I can usually tell what cards my opponent has in their hand after about halfway through the game based on what they mouse over or simply just how they are playing so it makes it easy to just calculate for the topdecks.
What do you think about the mulligan in general? In the beta phase there were suggestion on how to change it to reduce variance, do you think it could use a change and if so how should that look in your opinion?
I think the mulligan phase is fine, and it allows people to play decks with not so much early game, like control warrior. And hinders the power of decks like hunter and zoo that just run low curve because it makes answers easy to get. Most of the time when I think of mulligans, I think of the card games where you have to throw the entire hand back and you can't pick and choose what to keep, so I don't think it should be like that and that it's fine the way it is.
Photo: Blizzard
What do you think is the strongest deck to ladder right now?
It changes almost every day based on what's being played.
Does it differ for tournaments?
Yes tournaments have metas that are affected by the popular decks and by the format. So based on these two things there are different expectations for decks so different decks and specific deck attributes are more effective.
Speaking of tournaments, what do you think is the best tournament format? Many pro players seemed to like the Viagame House Cup format with picking and banning out of all 9 classes, any opinion on that?
I personally like the bring-4-ban-1 Last Hero Standing. I think this means each player needs a very solid well planned out lineup and they are unable to bring every possible counter deck like in a Bo9 or Bo7 so the games are 60/40 matchups rather than 70/30s so it's more interesting to play and watch.
How does preparing for a tournament look like for you? Can you give us a walkthrough? Where do you start and how does it develop from there?
I start by trying to understand what people will play, then determining what I want to play, then giving every deck in my lineup a purpose, then figuring out a list of say 60 or so cards that fit that purpose then valuing each of those 60 cards in terms of value or tempo, then creating the list from the 30 cards deemed best, then adjusting the curve to be statistically optimal for phases of the game where hitting on curve is important. Which in some matchups it's not. And then I test it with friends and repeat until I'm satisfied.
Did you have time to play GvG? Did any mechanic or card strike you as especially interesting? If so which and why?
While I was at Blizzcon I had no time to do anything but compete. I really like the card [card]Ancestor's Call[/card] and it will be interesting to see how people can use it.
You are a number guy, so how many hours do you spend on Hearthstone? How do you keep it interesting?
I stream about four hours a day and then do tournament practice with friends maybe another 1-2 hours a day. I keep it interesting by playing silly weird decks like Inner Fire Priest.
I’m a little sad that the World Champion did not get to design a card for the game as an additional prize, because that would’ve been awesome! If Blizzard asked you now, what card would you design?
Probably just a Spell called "Time Warp" that's a targeted spell that returns a minion to the state it was 1 or 2 turns ago and you get to pick which. Meaning it could act as a silence, turn a Nerubian back into an egg, remove silence from something, heal something, it would just be able to do a lot of possibilities.
After winning Blizzcon you finally were invited to tournaments, so how do you feel about that? Does that put extra pressure on you since you are the reigning World Champion?
I got what I wanted and now I will show that I am worth the invite. I feel like everyone expects me to do well, but they don't expect this more than I expect it of myself so its no added pressure.
Speaking of pressure, how do you handle it? I remember you struggling with it in the past, but you seem to handle it quite well nowadays. Any secrets?
I do a lot of stuff to calm nerves. I got a ritual sort of, I always take the stairs instead of the elevator even when I was on the 19th floor of the hotel for tournaments, and I never eat before my games, and I always sit with my legs crossed when I play/practice at the event, and I always close my eyes and take a deep breathe during the loading bar for the match.
