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| Blogs \ Latency, Dota 2 & Aussies |
  zmuffinman
@ 29th January 2012 09:51 (Read 5984 times).
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zMuffinMan's ggnet blog #2: Latency, Dota 2 & Aussies Dota 2. It truly has opened up an entirely new competitive landscape, one in which all countries can compete against eachother online in playable conditions, the exception still being China thanks to the infamous great firewall of China. Internet censorship is not a good thing and China is a strong reminder of why we should work hard to stop it. So, what are these playable conditions? What has Dota 2 done? I am referring to the latency, known to many as 'ping'. The time it takes for information to be sent and recieved so that your favourite hero moves when you right click the ground. Latency was a huge issue in DotA on wc3, and it still is in Dota 2. The nature of the game of DotA requires an almost instantaneous response time for optimal play and enjoyment. Every tiny click and millisecond of time to react to a situation can become crucial factors in a game. This applies more to certain heroes than others, an example being storm spirit. Dodging a stun with ball lightning or initiating on a hero that was out of position for just a second is something that can be made extremely difficult when on a high ping. I think back to playing DotA on wc3. Attempting to play international games from Australia was tough, even with hostbots. You would be lucky to have a good game between Australia and a SEA(South-East Asian) team with a SG hostbot. Forget about a game against Europeans, that just wasn't feasible. A ping of 200ms in wc3 DotA was and is not the same as a ping of 200ms in Dota 2. I'm not a computer and internet savvy guy, and I'm sure some people would have an answer for this, but I don't know why that is the case. All I know is playing international games through Dota 2 is now a lot more possible and it doesn't involve paying for and using hostbots of your own. What was once well over a second of delay is now less than half a second for games where SEA teams face European teams. Americans and Europeans can now fight it out in very good, playable conditions. It's great to see such American teams as It's Gosu and FIRE find success. Australians are now able to compete against the best in the world, no longer held back by latency issues. Not to say there still aren't issues. And this brings me to: When international teams from different continents face eachother. A game between two European teams or a game between two American teams is ideal. Both teams will have a low ping and have very close to equal ping. When taking tournaments to an international level and having the best teams from all over the world participate is when things get a little sticky. It was never really feasible in DotA, but it is now in Dota 2. Sacrifices still need to be made, no one wants to play on a higher ping, but I believe we should embrace diverse international competition in online tournaments. Offline events at LAN will still and should always be the most major and respected tournaments, but we can still have awesome online tournaments too. The bottom line is, anything hovering around 250ms ping or under is playable and if two teams can have equal ping we should expect to see a great and fair game(AL vs. SK). A mere 0.3 seconds of delay is a small sacrifice to make in order to see fantastic teams like Absolute Legends have the oppurtunity to compete. This is all made possible by Dota 2, a necessary step forward in the future of DotA. |
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| Firewall has nothing to do with latency or connection, unless the best route is blocked. |
| ^ HAHAHAHAHAH TRO- OH WAI- |
| Any idea how demotivating it is to play on us west? :D |
| its called netcode oh and no its not chinas great firewall but an infrastructure problem...during (chinese) night pings are way better |
| Yeah, but the fact that Malaysian internet sucks so much, ruins the entire beta experience for me T_T, had a key for months, played less than 80 games. |
| There's nothing great about feeling like you're underperforming because of less than enjoyable lag-issues be it delay or spiking. But hats off to the Australians for wanting to compete under these circumstances. |
| #6 Australians don't want to compete under such circumstances. There just isn't a choice. It is either play above 200ms or don't compete at all. Dota 2 has finally made it possible for Aussies to compete. I view this as a good thing. |
| #3 this! OP: have you tried scrimming, practicing, making your strategies and play perfect on absolutely ZERO seconds of delay? As Maelk said, hats off to the Aussies trying, they're all players I have big respect for (despite being quite rude to them during our last meeting) and they're probably better than me, delay or not. But when they're used to play on a high latency and we're not, it is not always the best team that wins, but the team used to the latency... It's not like I don't enjoy aussies playing, but imo they have to respect that since the majority of the competition is in Europe, they should play on a host suited for EU (USE or EU), and I don't thin its fair that 50 teams has to practice on USW just for 1 team to partipicate. |
| Maybe now it's 1 team participating, but give it time and you will see more teams in these International Tournaments. In fact it's already more than just one team... Asian teams play in "The Premier League" (Uswest host for eu vs SEA), including Mineski, MYM, WE, NV.cn. Asian teams playED in The Defense (emphasis on played, they got knocked out, it was on uswest server). People only seem to complain about AL because they are the only ones succeeding on USwest servers, while the rest of the Australian and Asian teams have tried and lost to the Europeans even on USWest server. If europeans were beating AL this wouldn't be an issue at all. This fair host is important as it gives the oppurtunity for teams in SEA/AUstralia/New Zealand to keep aiming at that goal to compete on an international level. If there's no tournaments where fair host is used, there's no reason to even try. It's good for e-sports to see these fair host rules enforced, even if people seem to believe it's only for one team. That's bullshit for starters, there are ~8-10 other teams who have forced euros to play on USwest and we aren't getting "special" treatment, just "fair" treatment. These tournaments can decide to be "EU Only" or "NA/EU only" and we simply won't sign up. Our team only signs up for tournaments that use fair host. It's as simple as that. We don't go and get upset that the D2E tournament didn't use a fair host and let us play, we just sign up for other tournaments we can play. If you guys want to only play on European hosts, then don't sign up for International Tournaments Maelk; quite simple. |
| #9 I've never played against any other team than AL since the other SEA teams aren't signing for "minor" tournaments (JeeSports) - I have nothing against AL succeeding, and I can't wait to see them on LAN and watch their true potentional, but my beliefs stand still - Majority of the competition is in EU, so you'll have to adapt to EU wishes which is NOT 50 teams scrimming on a bad server because 1-2 SEA teams want to compete, most EU's have nothing against USE, but a lot against USW which for me is directly unplayable. You may not see it as fair, and considder me biased, but it's quite the same in e.g. Bloodline Champions, play on EU server or don't play (I know it's a much smaller game - but still) - and yes I do understand you want an as equal ping as possible, but when 50 teams are practicing on 50 ping and 1 team on 400, I just don't considder it fair to force the 50 teams over on the 400 ping. |
| People need to stop throwing around these numbers like "400 ping", you want numbers. USwest has 0.3 second delay for us. It has the same (or maybe a TINY bit less for euros since they are lower ping than us in general). 0.25sec delay is perfectly playable. Stop throwing around these biased numbers like "400ms" which isn't even correct or tell the real story. We can respect any tourney being a euro tourney, we simply won't sign up, but we contact tourney admins ask about servers before we register, they tell us its fair host/international tourney so we sign up. I suggest euros do the same if they dont want to play on uswest. |
| #11 400 was my ping last time i played vs. AL, it is not a random number, and I had 0.75-1sec delay and roughly a spike every minute (it was quite random, sometimes 10s between, other 2min). My point still stands: 50 teams shouldn't adapt to one, one should adapt to the 50 - you can agree or disagree, but this is my oppinion |
| Funny I was looking at the rules of Infused Cup, US vs EU played on EU server, US vs Asia played on US server. I'd never play in that, especially with those prizes. The right way to do it is join a random server, both captains roll, then the higher number can pick the server, side, or pick order. And then the other captain picks the other two. |
| The Brawl does it properly, USEast based teams play Europe, USWest based teams play USeast, Austrailia and SEA teams play USWest, European teams should realize it's not all about them anymore, and practice playing under circumstances where delay is a factor. I feel like if they get use to the 'lag' of USWest like AL has, then they'll stop complaining every time AL enters a tournament. |
| #14 I stand my ground, the 50 should not adapt to the 1-2 or even 5 |
| #15 Whether it be 1 team, 5 teams, 10 teams, or 30 teams it's the growth of E-Sports in general, it shouldn't be all about Europe like it has been for the past x amount of years in DotA 1. Your logic is 'the 50 whatever shouldn't have to adapt for the x amount of whatever' when that is how it should be, adapting and evolving into something worth while rather then staying the same sheltered average game that sometimes gets a few tournaments. If you look at StarCraft 2, all players adapted and play on the fairest server for both parties, and nobody complains. If DotA2 even hopes to be half as successful as SC2 it needs to change, now. |
| #14 if u were from europe u had a different opinion:D btw australia is a rich country, why u no upgrade ur internet? i think smth like that was in sc, then korea upgrade their internet to compete in international tourney?? |
| #16 I disagree, there's absolutely NO point in practicing on a shitty server because of one team wants to partipicate, you compare dota2 to sc2 where the ratio of competitive players/teams is much more even than dota2, but it's nice to see good argumentation.. or something, well atleast it's good to have a discussion about this, so far nothing of what you said makes me wanna change my mind, the minority has to adapt. I understand the fustration from the SEA teams, especially AL, but when they're the only team from that region which are capable of playing at the very highest level of play, EU simply can't adapt to USW ping, it would be COMPLETELY retarded for 2 EU teams to practice on USW against eachother, because otherwise they will get knocked out by someone (Who may or may not be better) who's used to the terrible conditions from USW servers. |
| In this circumstances, when there's is a vast majority of Xs over Ys, it all comes down to sportsmanship. If you want to play the game as fair as possible against your opponent, you play in a server which reduces his lag greatly while it lags you a bit. I can see the European logic under this complains tho. You guys never suffered heavy lags and now (when almost every team is structuring or being restructured) it's not the time to suffer it. It's logical to refuse to play under worse circumstances because one (1) team wants to play smoothly. It's DotA's old history. You wanna play against European teams? You play under their hosts, lagging as fucking hell. In fact, seeing them agreeing to play in US hosts is a major improvement, something not usual in DotA. But I believe that as the game grows and develops we must keep-up with it. Tying to play as fair as possible is a step forward. AL is not the very essence of the fair-play but they have a point right here and I support them in this. |
| People like Demonic are part of the reason why Dota 2 isn't going to develop and become a huge e-sport.. It has to be huge Internationally, not just in Europe for it to reach anywhere near the level of SC2. That won't happen if tournaments don't make it possible for teams in Asia to compete. |
| Wait Europe is the 50 and Asia is the 5? Learn to count? |
| #18 it's not just AL, it's half of the united states, to Australia to Asia to China, if Asian teams are willing to play to the West server, Europeans should not be put on a pedestal by no means, sorry to say. For once I completely agree with Godzz, if this isn't solved now this 'e-sport' will never evolve, and it will majorly be the fault of selfish Europeans not willing to adapt. |
| yeah, i was talking with someone, basically it's already been proven, Dota 2 will be a success in Europe, no matter what valve do and what tournaments do. There is already a huge competitive scene in Europe for Dota 2. But for the game to become "Starcraft2-big", it needs to reach the rest of the world: USA, South America, Australia, SEA, China as the main other gaming communities. You aren't going to do that by not giving these teams the chance to compete. You want more $1mil tournies, well you need to have huge exposure ALL OVER THE WORLD, if Dota2 is like DOta1 in terms of tournaments being all euro-centric, it will be the same with no actual large scale tournaments on a regular basis. I can understand why this annoys European dota players; in their bubble they are in the perfect place. Heaps of teams to compete with, heaps of tournaments, heaps of chances to get sponsored: but the same doesn't apply anywhere else in the world. Right now the European Dota2 scene defines the Dota2 scene in general. All these tournaments where AL became know, and Fire became know, and the current "Its Gosu" became known were tournaments run by Europeans (But labeled as "International tournaments" with fair hosts so we could compete). Until other regions can establish themselves, it's the only avenue to success, and as more foreign teams get recognition/sponsors/exposure their dota2 scenes will kick off and get more teams playing. If you want Dota2 as an e-sport to fail and not leave Europe, then you are on the right track with your ideas Demonic. What should really happen is you get some perspective, and realize that you guys just have to suck it up so the game can succeed for everyone, not just yourselves. In the end everyone will benefit. |
| I feel that the 'lag' being described by many Europeans is being exaggerated. Firstly, it isn't lag, it is delay. A latency of 250ms is very playable and is nothing like it was in wc3 DotA. It is 0.3 seconds of delay. I've played on it. I know this. It is when the opposing player/team has a much lower latency than you that the game becomes hard and unfair. I discovered this when playing on USEast servers with a latency of 350ms against Americans who were getting around 100ms and below. Do we want international tournaments? The simple answer is yes. It is conceited to think that Europe has been the centre of DotA throughout the years. It is because they were only competing against eachother that it seemed that way, especially on the very Euro focused website, gosugmers.net. In fact, DotA was dieing in Europe last year. The only good teams were MYM, Na'Vi and M5. All three of which paled in comparison to the Chinese giants. Even if the ratio of teams was 50:1, such reasoning would be completely irrelevant. But that isn't even the case. As the scene grows there will be an abundance of competition coming from all over the world. South East Asia has always had world class players and teams and likewise, America has always had players strong enough to compete with the best. Americans and Europeans are near equal ping on USEast servers, Asians + Oceanic players are near equal ping to Europeans on USWest servers. The only problem that I see is when we see a match up of Asia or Australia versus America, seeing as when played on USWest, the Americans will have a latency advantage. |
| You guys do realise that aL plays against americans on their own server ? giving aL approximately 150ms disadvantage ? Do you hear them winging ? no, they man up and play...and yet euro's complain about getting an equal if not slightly better ping when playing on us/w. If this is the attitude of our "pro" players the dota 2 esport scene is in strife. |
| #22 I've never heard any team having trouble finding a host vs. fire/gosu/wdds (Americans) only problems with aussies (And SEA but they aren't scrimming / playing in a lot of tournaments atm so..). As for starcraft II scale, you forget the scale of teams, I mentioned it before and I will again, when there's only one team scrimming regularily for HS / known cw's in dota2, we simply have no chance to adapt, play on US:W in a EU vs. EU matchup? Not going to happen. You have at no point justified that 95% of the teams should scrim against eachother with bad conditions. But I doubt you will realize it anytime soon; But hey, we're at the same level, you're defending "a set of rules" which gives you an advantage, and so am I. You guys keep ignoring that we are not used to a high ping - and we won't be able to get used to it unless more than 1 team is scrimming regularily on USW. @Ngazi, sorry; you're right, there's less than 5 SEA/Aus teams playing regularily international |
| Get your head of your ass mate. We aren't at the same level. I'm defending a set of rules that puts us on an equal/fair playing field. You are defending a set of rules that puts Europeans with an unfair advantage. |
| Get your head out of your miniature world. I never said that - I said HS / known teams. In fact, I do believe in one of my posts, either in our mirc discussion or here on ggnet, that I do considder nL better than my current team, individual and teamwise. But nice argument :) You may see it as fair, but it is not - which makes your arguments no better than mine. |
| #28 very good argument aNub.demonic |
| I guess most of the drama can be avoided if the tournament rules clearly state how the server is selected. If a tournament is directed only at european teams, then only european servers would be used. If it's directed for teams outside of Europe as well, such a server should be used that gives closest to equal ping for both parties. Then teams can choose not to attend tournaments with rules they find intolerable. I think a majority of players and spectators would agree that the game is fair when the delay is close to same for both teams. Of course it's not the same game with higher pings and offline is the ultimate form of competition. The benefit of local tournaments is of course low pings. The intercontinental tournaments are important for teams who have no local tournaments and it gives more exposure for the game outside of Europe possibly helping local tournaments emerge by time. |
| I'm pretty sure that taking advantage of lag difference, which is to say forcing your opponent to play under higher lag, puts you at a disadvantage when it comes time to LAN. ESWC '08 says hi. |
| Every single major tournament since 2009 says hi too. Edit: I'm referring the year, not the player. |
| It's only fair to play on a host that gives even ping. Why do you need to discuss this? The only excuse one could use to explain losses against AL on USW is: Despite both teams having equal ping; AL practice daily with 1 seconds delay, whereas most teams practice without delay. When both teams meet on the condition '1 seconds delay', one could raise the question: "Who is having the advantage, if anyone?". AL is a great team and it takes an even greater team to beat them. USW or not. If you want Dota 2 to grow in SEA, it's time to step up and organize some tournaments with SEA host and SEA team invitations. |
| It is not one second ping if you are on 200ping on USW. A lot of people play MMOs on 300ping and they are fine yet scrubs can't even handle DotA on 200ping - Europeans are just being selfish and can't even realise they were never the top at DotA ever. Americans/Oceanic/SEA have always been better at DotA even thou they put in less effort but the only thing that held them back was PING + no tourneys. I hope you Europeans notice that you are crap |
| Maybe if some people spent more time practising and spent less time giving a bitch everywhere, 200ms wouldn't ever be a problem. |
| #33 very well written post Ryze, I agree with every part. I will however add that some ppl (including me, and appearently 7ckingmad, according to his post in one of the gosubets) are having severe issues with USW server |
| And no one else does? I'm sure no one ever has issues with Europe servers. |
| Hey its not 1 second delay it might fee llike it but it is probably .5 seconds the max it jsut feels different. |
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