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Forums \ WarCraft 3 Strategic forum \ Undead "Alchemist, Bird opening"

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Fr33_Birl)

Undead "Alchemist, Bird opening" (3903 reads, 42 replies, 1 year ago)

Hello everyone,

I have been toying with wc3 since the first beta release. I am a good player with every race and I am always looking toward new strategies. Lately, I have been trying some variations to find out if there was anything left I could possibly try out to improve my rankings as a solo undead player. After trying a lot of things, I found something that I tough was good enough to face high level competition and I tough I could share it with you guys. I could not play as many games as I would’ve liked to deeply test this out because I was quite busy lately. However, I could enjoy some convincing wins versus average to good players. Without wasting more time, let’s get to it.

1. Introducing the strategy

In general, most undead players rely upon magical tri-hero “nuke”. The most common build being DK\Lich\Cl. This strategy however is different because it relies upon physical “nuke” instead. I also tried a different build order which allows for more early harassment without screwing up on wood and delaying Tier 2.

2. Tier 1 build order

The build order used here is not common. I will try to explain why I made up such Bo for this strategy. It is not a ghoul or normal fiend build neither a Ted’s fiend. I guess it could be called the Bird opening (referring to my User name and the old uncommon chess opening of the same name)

- Make 1 acolyte
- Make 1st crypt
- Make 2nd crypt
- Make 1st ziggurat
- Make last acolyte
- Make 3 ghouls
- Make Altar
- Make 2nd ziggurat
- Make 2-4 more ghouls
- Upgrade to tier 2
- Make Shop
- Make Graveyard
- Make 3rd ziggurat

The purpose of going with 2 early crypts is to harass early on with 2 ghouls and keep the ghoul production high enough to avoid delaying tier 2. The 2 crypt will later be used to pump out mass fiends or gargs. Since this tech involves going for a tavern hero, you don’t need to build an early shop.

3. Early harassment

When your 2nd ghoul is out, send both ghouls out for a scout\harass. There is some advantages of using 2 ghouls to harass early on. First of all, with one ghoul, you can’t take out a building being built but with 2, you can. With this kind of early rush, you can harass worker or delay a building or 2. Then, if one of your ghoul is being chased by a hero when it pops out, your second ghoul can help you block the hero to help your weak ghoul escaping. Also, if you happen to loose 1 ghoul, you will still have one to buy your hero (because this strategy involves a tavern hero). Finally, by sending 2 ghouls this early, you will be able to take out your opponent’s scouting unit out before he can even scout you out which allows you for some more momentum.

4. Heroes to be used

This strategy’s goal is to optimize your ability to physically nuke your opponents out of combat, and believe me, this is what it does. The heroes you will want to use:

---1st hero

Alchemist (Rage/AB/Rage/AB/Rage/AB/Transmute/…)

Alchemist is played exactly in the same way as a Blade master is played. You can sell early on his scroll of TP to stack circlets or buy boots. You are looking for gloves of haste, agility and strength items. Alchemist is quite unique being the only melee hero which can attack air units without a orb. He as an average DPS which can be compared with the one of a Blade master if you neglect to include items. The difference between the 2 heroes is that the Blade master as a sustained DPS and the alchemist as an Up and Down DPS (Very high DPS while Rage is active and quite crap when it is not). Stacking boots and agility or “attack speed” items will boost the effectiveness of Rage. Boots of speed are a must for an alchemist since it gives twice its effect while using Rage thus allowing him to be the best chasing hero. Alchemist can be used to harass the enemy without worrying about loosing him. Also, since Rage is a costless ability, you don’t have to fear being drained out of your mana and become “good for nothing” versus a DH.

---2nd and 3rd heroes

Naga (FA/MS/FA/MS/FA/Tornado/...)

I guess you all found out why Naga comes as the second hero. It slows down the units so that the alchemist can more easily do sustained damage.

Lich (Nova/FA/Nova/FA/Nova/D&D/...)

The Lich is already a good DPS dealer and can also slow down and do a good amount of damage with Nova. Frost armor is also very good to use on alchemist since he as poor armor. Moreover, to properly use orb of corruption, you need to have a ranged hero. Naga can’t use orb because it does not work in conjunction with frost arrow. So, your are left with the Dark ranger or the Fire lord if you don’t want to use Lich. I prefer the Lich.

5. Tier 2 units

At tier 2, there are some variations involved depending on the race you are playing against. I consider that ghouls/gargs are usually best to go with this strategy because gargs provide with the best fire focus effectiveness. They are best used versus Undead and Night elves. They can also work pretty well versus human if you research stone form and you morph when you encounter mass gyros or tanks. I won some games versus mass gyros with gargs because of stone form and the fact that Alche\Naga\Lich is probably one of the best anti-air hero combo of the game. A wyrm can also take care of gyros pretty fast. Versus orcs, bats are always big trouble versus gargs but you can still go into stone form, destroy is anti-air then go back into gargoyle once it’s done. This however, does not always work so well especially at pro level. This is why going ghouls/fiends versus this match up becomes a good idea.

--- Core units

Statues

Since undead lacks healing at tier 1, they need a statue as soon as possible when tier 2 is reached. This is not something inherent to this strategy but to every undead strategies.

Necromancers

The necromancer is a core unit for this build because of his ability to cast unholy frenzy. Unholy frenzy is usually cast on your heroes and your biggest units (aboms\wyrms). Casting unholy frenzy on alchemist while he his using rage transforms him into an incredible killing machine. Cripple can also be research and used later on. I use cripple mainly versus the orcs Blade master and for killing fleeing units\heroes in late games. Cripple can also help you to maintain your casters or heroes alive. Cripple the problem and back off a bit.

Banshees

Banshees are underused undead casters which should be used most of the time versus orc, human or undead. Versus orc, curse is a very good spell which will give you a lot more time to live. Anti-magic shell can also be casted on your heroes to prevent ex, stomp or shockwave. Versus undead or human, anti-magic shell will prevent magic “nuking”. Wyrms, destroyers and gryphons won’t be able to attack you either. Versus Ne, Banshees are not very useful. They could be used to possess bears but the money is best spent on making more gargoyles instead.

Shades

Shades are a core unit versus orc using a Blade master but can also become handy to prevent any expand from rising up unnoticed.

--- Other units

Adding 1-2 wyrms late game is always a good options versus every race. However, without a Dk, keeping those big units alive becomes more challenging. This is why I don‘t recommend aboms or destroyers with this technique. Destroyers should be used only if needed for dispel.

6. Pros and cons

--- Pros

- This strategy can definitely launch one (if not) the biggest physical nuke of the game…

- Up to –10 armor reduction with orb of corruption and acid bomb level 3
(46% extra damage with –10 armor)
- Rage + Frenzy stacked on Alchemist for a 200% attack speed bonus
(Alchemist lvl 5:approx. 110-120 DPS (–10 armor), 75-85 DPS (0 armor)
- With Naga, lich and 1 wyrm frenzied + 8 gargoyles (+1 creature upg.)…
(approx. 300-350 DPS on a hero with 0 armor) Count to 3…
- Alchemist is renown for his ability to chase down units

- Alchemist is an escape artist and can also be used to harass

- Great hero combination for anti-air and slow effect

- This strategy allows a lot of flexibility (harassment, early creeping, rush)

--- Cons

- Heroes are more vulnerable than they would be with a common DK build

- Late shop (wand) delays the opportunity to farm on some hard creep camps

- Raising up a late graveyard and shop can be troublesome if harassed

This concludes the post for now. I might come back with some new stuff but this shows the global idea. If I resume:

- Start with a dual ghoul harass\scout
- Make Tri-hero physical nuke
- Use slow effects to allow sustained damage from alchemist
(cripple, nova, frost arrow, wyrm)
- Boost up the power of your heroes and units
(Unholy frenzy, Gloves of haste, Orb of corruption, Acid bomb)
- Render your heroes and units less vulnerable to fire focus and nukes
(Frost armor, Anti-magic shell, scrolls and potions)
- ALWAYS buy your alchemist boots of speed

Of course I could of made an in depth analysis of this strategy and check out map by map but I let you guys have the pleasure to do so. For example, maps with wells allows for more harassment since you have healing for alchemist. This strategy is cunning and can work well at high level of play. I would definitely want some gosu replays using this.

Copyright Fr33_Birl) 2011

1 year ago

inhuman

At tear one, without DK, you're screwed. Your units will die very easily, perhaps you will be able to save them only versus a Human with AM. With necros/banshees against Orc, you're screwed. With necros/banshees against Human, you're screwed. With necros/banshees against Night Elf, you're screwed. With necros/banshees against Undead, you're screwed. Bottom line is, you're screwed. If you search a little bit here you will find a long thread started by a countryman of yours, just as useless strategy as this one. You people should learn some basics about WarCraft before trying to "invent" it. The Undead race is the race with which you can improvise the least. It just is the only race which does not give you an opportunity to play non-mainstream, because it always fails. If you want to improvise, pick Night Elf or Human. The Elves especially are the most flexible race - they can make almost anything and defeat you. Don't try to mess with the Undead, leave them alone. You see how weak they are and you think it is because they use wrong strategies? Well, they don't. They need a balance fix which will hopefully come with the patch. Until then, just accept that you can't think of anything new regarding Undead, they are so mainstream. Go play with Elf, there you will succeed. Think about the tavern heroes, the MG's, the Faerie Dragons.

1 year ago

Fr33_Birl)

I appreciate your comment but you missed a thing or 2 here. Fiendshee is used versus orcs and not versus every races. Banshees are used versus other races only for AMS wich causes your heroes and big units to avoid being magically owned. Necros are used versus every races but most of the time, only 1-2 will suffice just as banshees (except fiendshee versus orc). So, your comment would've been better exposed to someone massing banshees and necromancers, this is not the case here. Making 1-2 casters of each type won't get me screwed at all because this tech does not depend on those units.

Saying this is useless without understanding and trying it just shows you are narrow minded. I know about the basics of warcraft and this opening is not instant fail as you might think. If you're desire is to wait for a new patch for wc3 i really think you should best forget about it and draw a line over undeads for 1v1 solo.

Actually I did switch back and forth from undead to nightelf because of this flexibility you are talking about. Using this odd opening pushes pressure early on and allows for a tavern hero and fast harassment without delaying tier 2.

I showed in the last post the potential physical damage burst available with this strategy. I approximated at 300-350 on a hero with 0 armor but most of the time, the hero will probably go down to -5 armor wich will raise the DPS over 400. No heroes will last more than 3 seconds with such damage. Dk is fine to avoid loosing big units. This strategy relies upon low-hp units wich means that only heroes stay really exposed and that your units don't need no coil. Use stone form, use cripple and frost armor when your heroes are focused and get them out safely with no need for coil. Cripple is a 10 sec uber slow magic wich can be used in specific situations like this and replace what coil would've allowed you to do.

Finally, you say this is totally useless and you end up telling me to try tavern heroes, Mg's and faerie dragon? Give me a break will you. Try it out at least 10 times and come back for another post.

1 year ago

inhuman

I will never try this out, you are yet another Azeroth "pro" with "innovations". Well, I have already seen what you have come up with, it's nothing new. Moreover, I have never, do not, and will never play Undead, to me this is the weakest and most boring of all races. MGs are funny, dragons also, tavern heroes very, that's why I gave them as an example, thank you for your suggestion but I do not need to play "innovative", I am happy with my race and all the deviations from the cookie-cutter strategies professional players use.

This post was edited by its author @ 1 year ago

1 year ago

Small stars represents one level - This user is on level 2

Eli_King

isn't moontracker's newbie undead guide enough for us? you both(Fr33_Birl) and noob tracker) don't know a thing about undead. just realize that without dk you dont worth a shit.

בני זונות

This post was edited by its author @ 1 year ago

1 year ago

ArsenalFotballClub

First time i've seen someone "Copyright" their work here at Gosugamers.

lol

Good job though

By the way i'm curious to see how well this strategy can work or not.
(Though i'm sure it will fail, sorry)

What's your nick on Garena?

This post was edited by its author @ 1 year ago

1 year ago

guigaw

#3 #4
Honestly everyone is tired of you talking shit about these strats. Ok, they are not the best strats, he said

versus average to good players

, so he is not even saying he is pro (the only time he used the word pro was to criticize his own strat), just that the strat MAY work on high level, not top-pro, and it's an assumption. Did anyone think that u could tower rush a NE with tinker as first hero at top-pro level? Still Infi did that to remind (if im not mistaken).

Just keep your ultimate opinions to yourselves.

Peace

This post was edited by its author @ 1 year ago

1 year ago

Eli_King

#6 I have told my opinion and It's ok ,I have the values of the good democracy i live in and i that's all. I know that he hadn't told " it works to me in pro level" etc. , its just foolish that he uses no dk,without dk its like that the whole undead army is a free victims to the enemy forces,alchemist as first hero is just stupid...

btw infi used tinker vs moon in blizzcon.

Peace again back to you dude ;).

בני זונות

1 year ago

inhuman

#6 I will express my opinion as long as I want to because this is the point of having a forum on this website. Who are you to command me to keep it to myself? You think you are superior to me in some manner just because you saw infi towerrushing with tinker or because you blindly believe his strategy will work? Honestly, who are you to talk about everyone? How do you know what everyone thinks?

This post was edited by its author @ 1 year ago

1 year ago

guigaw

#7
it's for fun

#8
Wow calm down dude, can't you do that without all that rage?! No i don't think i'm superior, you say MG and Faeries are funny and you like to innovate, still you make fun of alchemist and that strat, i just can't get why, can't it be fun too?
I suck with Ud and i won't play them so i will never be able to try it out, maybe you're right, it sucks vs any good player (same as moontracker's strat) ofcourse you can have your opinion and SHARE it.

Btw, wich race do you play with?

And to add some usefulness to the discussion, what are your opinions about what shloud be changed with Ud to make it balanced, mainly mainly orc?

1 year ago

#10

inhuman

I wasn't raging, I don't like to innovate, those were just examples god damn it, nothing more. stop drawing conclusions on them. I play Orc and I can't exactly say what should be changed, but I think it has to be something about those fiends, they are almost useless.. Maybe reduce the time needed to create, or give the Undead a bit more gold so that they can finally start like the other races do and have a hero and some army earlier, which might improve the balance vs Orc but will also have an adverse effect on the HU vs UD matchup, because the expansions might become impossible for the humans to build fast.

1 year ago

#11

guigaw

Fine, sry about that.

I think innovate is cool, i know it's close to impossible to come with something really effective, still we should try.

I kinda agree with the fiend attack boost, maybe an accolyte hp buff would be good (because of accolyte harras). Also Bm critical strike nerf would be fair on every match-up i guess.

1 year ago

#12

Fr33_Birl)

No point talking to inhuman or Eli_king. They both troll every posts sent on the forums and go assuming that it wont work without even thinking about it, finding pros and cons or trying it. You gave us both your opinion so now begone and let some undead players try it out and give there impressions.

About balancing Ud, theres nothing more senseless than giving Ud more gold or changing the fiends cause this would totally ruin all other mu balances. The best way to balance things out would be to change something that is underused and that could not be used effectively against any other races. Moontracker might have been totally wrong about his strategy but if cripple could cost a bit less, necros would sure be usable to even UdvsOrc matchup. If it comes out that cripple gets too strong they they could still nerf the effects. Criplle is nerver is just about never used and it could not be used with a lot of success versus any other races appart from orc.

They could also modify collision size of necropolis so that a zigg built near the necropolis would not allow a hero to go between the 2 (just as it is with all other races). This could at least save the ud player from having to build a frost tower when he cannot block the access to acolytes.

Now, before talking shit and assuming things think twice please. The idea of a strategic forum is not to rush in and troll everything. It would rather be to try things out or just stfu when you don't know a shit about what you're talking about.

1 year ago

#13

ArsenalFotballClub

Ud doesn't need any buff and fiends are definitively not weak.
The problem lies with the BM, a small rework off his Windwalk or Critical strike will be enough.

1 year ago

#14

Fr33_Birl)

There's no problem with the Bm, try this strategy and own him in less than 3 secs into combat. :\

1 year ago

#15

inhuman

I have to disagree. The orcs have been imba vs undead even before people started using BM in every single game, so the problem is not there. Besides, the Orcs are weak, they get raped by casters and other sources of magic damage because they are the only race without a magic immune unit. Right now, the only way they can cope with the massive amounts of casters they face in almost every game is the Blademaster. If he gets nerfed, we won't have anything to counter them. Even now, if you watch replays, which I assume Canadians don't, you will see how the Orcs are forced to avoid direct encounters with the Talons because they can't win a direct fight. Instead, they go for a base raid. And another point - I've been playing this game since 2007, before 1.22 came out. At that time, nobody complained about the Orcs being imbalanced, except of course the Undead players. Elves had their orb of venom which was overpowered enough to deal massive amounts of damage to the enemy and the staff abuse which enabled them to save a lot more of their units. Humans had their towers and they performed an instant tower rush almost every game vs Orcs, which were extremely hard to stop. But the orb and the staff got nerfed, the towers got nerfed, the Undead got BUFFED, and the Orcs received no balance change. Humans realised that they no longer can get a freewin vs Orc by towering him, Elves realised that they have to micro their units now, not only their Demon Hunter. And since the Orcs received no balance changes, the other players got angry because of that, nobody even thought about whether they actually need them or not. Now I read everyday posts about how imbalanced the Blademaster is, posts written by low-skilled players who simply don't know how to counter him. I play mostly vs Orcs on battle.net because players started to switch their race to Orc believing they are so imba and easy to play. Needless to say I win the vast majority of those players with a great ease. Because they don't really know how to play Orc and don't really understand the mechanics of the game. And now those 20 lvl Azeroth players come here posting their useless inventions regarding Undead, which simply can't be an innovative race, make me feel an urge to point all this out to you, you will never understand and will never listen, you will always whine no matter what the next balance patch offers us, I'm just glad I learned to stay calm when reading nonsense.

1 year ago

#16

Eli_King

2011-01-05 10:53, inhuman wrote:
I have to disagree. The orcs have been imba vs undead even before people started using BM in every single game, so the problem is not there. Besides, the Orcs are weak, they get raped by casters and other sources of magic damage because they are the only race without a magic immune unit. Right now, the only way they can cope with the massive amounts of casters they face in almost every game is the Blademaster. If he gets nerfed, we won't have anything to counter them. Even now, if you watch replays, which I assume Canadians don't, you will see how the Orcs are forced to avoid direct encounters with the Talons because they can't win a direct fight. Instead, they go for a base raid. And another point - I've been playing this game since 2007, before 1.22 came out. At that time, nobody complained about the Orcs being imbalanced, except of course the Undead players. Elves had their orb of venom which was overpowered enough to deal massive amounts of damage to the enemy and the staff abuse which enabled them to save a lot more of their units. Humans had their towers and they performed an instant tower rush almost every game vs Orcs, which were extremely hard to stop. But the orb and the staff got nerfed, the towers got nerfed, the Undead got BUFFED, and the Orcs received no balance change. Humans realised that they no longer can get a freewin vs Orc by towering him, Elves realised that they have to micro their units now, not only their Demon Hunter. And since the Orcs received no balance changes, the other players got angry because of that, nobody even thought about whether they actually need them or not. Now I read everyday posts about how imbalanced the Blademaster is, posts written by low-skilled players who simply don't know how to counter him. I play mostly vs Orcs on battle.net because players started to switch their race to Orc believing they are so imba and easy to play. Needless to say I win the vast majority of those players with a great ease. Because they don't really know how to play Orc and don't really understand the mechanics of the game. And now those 20 lvl Azeroth players come here posting their useless inventions regarding Undead, which simply can't be an innovative race, make me feel an urge to point all this out to you, you will never understand and will never listen, you will always whine no matter what the next balance patch offers us, I'm just glad I learned to stay calm when reading nonsense.

I didn't expect to say this to a person which i don't realy like but.. I have to agree, Trying inveneting strategies is useless , the whole game has discovered and all those azeroth players sohuld realize how the high skilled players play and know why their strategies are useless, and they just keep flame us back even that we're right!

btw:the only magic immune unit it the orc race is : serpant ward... IT DOESN'T HELP US!

בני זונות

This post was edited by its author @ 1 year ago

1 year ago

#17

Fr33_Birl)

Fuckin bunch of idiot newblars!!!

You play since 2007? Well guess what, i play since 2000 so you're the newb who knows fuck all about the mechanics. Stupid orc players like you thinking they are so great without being able to play anything else beside Bm\Sh make me sick. You got no talent and bad copy pro players strategies. You won't beat Grubby by bad copying his style. You guys discust me with your assumptions and racism towards people from the west. Freakin learn manners.

All Matchup are nearly even staying between 45-55%. When it comes down to ORC vs Ud, it goes up to 42-58%. Yes of course gay orc players like you will say it's balanced and you would be crazy not to say so. The fact is that there are many ways to bring this Mu within a more even gap.

Now, if you got something else to whine about say it now and quit it please this post was not about Orc or Bm it was about using Alche/naga/lich in the best way possible.

Freakin puber kids, dry your navel out for god sake

1 year ago

#18

inhuman

Dude, you are North American, please be quiet. My dog can beat you easily, he just needs 1 month of training.

1 year ago

#19

ArsenalFotballClub

2011-01-05 13:19, Fr33_Birl) wrote:

i play since 2000

Wc3 came out in 2002, TFT came out in 2003. Just saying

And in case you didn't notice my first post I asked if you were interested in doing some games with you performing your strategy. Are you up too that?

What's your Garena nick?

This post was edited by its author @ 1 year ago

1 year ago

#20

Eli_King

2011-01-05 13:19, Fr33_Birl) wrote:
All Matchup are nearly even staying between 45-55%.When it comes down to ORC vs Ud, it goes up to 42-58%.

lol who told that it happens for everyone!? if it happens to a noob like it doesn't mean that it happens to everyone,many undead plaeyrs are up of 80% ,stfu plz and stop act like a smart player, I know many players who played since the beat and they are all fucknig noobs ,not everyone,i Just say that some that I know.

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