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Forums \ WarCraft 3 Strategic forum \ What known imbalances are there?
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5 months ago

carn
What known imbalances are there? (2281 reads, 40 replies)
Often read that some races are imbalanced against others or that some units are imbalanced. But i can seldom see the imbalance people claim is there, because to every combination of units i can think up a counter. (Of course i'm not good enough to do and execute that fast enough in a game, but thats my skill, not game problem)


E.g. some thread here someone writes, that human using MK, PL, some footies, mass sorcerors and priests against orcs on tier 2 is imbalanced.
I do not know what is imbalanced about this, on tier 2 the orc can build spirit walkers which makes the sorcerors a waste of money.
Or wyverns, only the sorcerors and priest fire at the wyverns. Since wyverns are basically fast and deal 150% damage to unarmoured casters, they will cripple the army even if slowed.

The only possible imbalances i have thought of are first orc vs high teched NE air:
chims fire at buildings from distance 85, hippos fire at distance 60, while orc HHs have range 45. Therefore if the terrain is bad the HHs will be useless against hippo rider and chims. Orc bats are only good against mass cause it takes 2 bats to kill a hippo rider and 3 to kill a chim, in both cases the orc pays more, so its not a counter. Orc casters cannot do anything about air and orc heros only little.(Hex)
So if the NE is good enough to control several small groups of maybe 2 hippo rider and 1 chim, harrasing with them from different directions, the orc cannot do anything about it without losing more resources than the NE.

Second possible imbalanced is any other race on tier2 against UD:
UD gets dispel on tier 3 so cannot stop slow, curse, skels, spirit link, faerie fire, roar and rejuvenation. So it seems UD has no counter against these, except wait for tier 3 and have fun with the many casters.

So what real imbalances are there?
And where is incompetence misidentified as imbalance?
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5 months ago
#1

Mighty_HeatoN

   2
Hmm, maybe the XP gained from killing tanks is like less then killing night elf buildings :P

And I think the XP-tome is imba, they should just remove it -_-
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5 months ago
#2

tony4343

   1
Some say Mk stun is imba, sum say Dh mana burn is imba and sum sayd Dk coil is imba.

I say live with it! ^(-_-)^
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5 months ago
#3

chickenhawk

   1
superman imba
wisps imba
panda imba
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5 months ago
#4

NeedsMoreKodoBeast

   1
chimaeras are not imbalanced against orc. Wyverns and bats would pwn chimaeras and hippogriffs.
Headhunters are not used because of their terrible movement speed.

Many of the imbalances that people complain about are arguable, but it is generally agreed upon that the repair rate of peasants is ridiculous, (thats why its being patched.) I also think many people believe siege engines need some kind of nerf (XP increase makes sense.)

Also the patch fix involving passing Staff of Preservation around is also reasonable.

Please watch some replays of professional players to increase your theorycraft knowledge.
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5 months ago
#5

carn

   1
2008-05-28 10:38:26, NeedsMoreKodoBeast wrote:
chimaeras are not imbalanced against orc. Wyverns and bats would pwn chimaeras and hippogriffs.

But that doesn't seem to be a real counter, as orc has to invest rather same amounts of gold.
I thought counter is about investing far less and still be superior.
E.g. shielded footies vs range. Footies receive 50% damage and deal 150%, same amount of gold invested -> enemy has to flee or lose.
e.g. air vs meele, able to deal damage without losing anything.
e.g. range vs air, range is medium so 75% damage and air is light so 200% damage, air has to flee, if same amoutn of gold is invested.
2008-05-28 10:38:26, NeedsMoreKodoBeast wrote:
Please watch some replays of professional players to increase your theorycraft knowledge.


How do i find them among the mass of replays?

Because of the replays i watched so far, only one was between good players, both would have killed me around 3 minutes.
One was a one of those good player against a harassing incompetent hero fan(having 3 heroes level 1-2 is waste of money and good way to lose)
Most others i think where between players, where i think i might have won 50% of the time, if they had made the same mistakes against me - having 2000 gold and food 30-40 for minutes doesn't look professional.
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5 months ago
#6

fenix.sein

   2
Sorceress arent waste of gold versus orc, if u do them with archmage. That makes them have so much mana that sws cant dispell everything. Also SW needs the first spell upgrade, when sorceress only needs slow, so you can push with sorceress before orc gets dispell SW. I actually never heard about mk pl caster strat, which sure isnt "imba".

Ensnare would take all those hippos and chimaeras out of the sky even from 700 range, so bersekers would be able to hit them btw. And about chimaera hippogryff: Its so slow to execute, that enemy will get advantage for example expansion, and therefore be easily able to defeat that army.
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5 months ago
#7

ronnimbl

   3
I don't think there is so much imbalance as people claim in WC3. I believe there is a few maps, where certain races has an advantage vs other, but imbalance isnt such a big problem
Imbalance exsamble

GW: Orc > UD
GW: UD > Elf
LT: HU > UD
LT : HU > elf
LT: Orc > UD
LT: Orc > Elf
TS: Hu > Orc
TS: HU > UD
TS: Elf > Orc
TR: Elf > Orc

Those are probably the biggest imbalances in the game, but some players are good at certain maps, so some UD's are good vs orc on GW.
I was good vs Human when i was just some lvl 42-43 player, but lately my opponents have been getting harder, so im not that great vs hum anymore
(btw im UD)
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5 months ago
#8

itsRaining-

   2
only imba army is gyro/gryph/knight vs ud in non tavern maps. all others arent imbalanced. ofc some units can be considered to be imbalanced like dh, bm, destro, tank, hum towers + repair rate etc.

also everyone knows that mostly: elf > orc & orc > ud
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5 months ago
#9

carn

   1
2008-05-28 14:42:22, itsRaining- wrote:
only imba army is gyro/gryph/knight vs ud in non tavern maps. all others arent imbalanced. ofc some units can be considered to be imbalanced like dh, bm, destro, tank, hum towers + repair rate etc.

Wouldn't this be destroyed by pure crypt fiends?
Of course this depends on ratios of gyro/gryph/knight and more knights will kill spiders. But too many knights and too few gryphons would allow for abominations and a few fiends and too few gyros could be attacked by mass gargs.

2008-05-28 14:42:22, itsRaining- wrote:
also everyone knows that mostly: elf > orc & orc > ud

Why?
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5 months ago
#10

carn

   1
2008-05-28 14:23:23, ronnimbl wrote:

LT: Orc > Elf
TS: Elf > Orc
TR: Elf > Orc


Ok, Orc like that fountain of health on LT, but why is a tavern so important for elf?
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5 months ago
#11

carn

   1
2008-05-28 14:07:32, fenix.sein wrote:
Sorceress arent waste of gold versus orc, if u do them with archmage. That makes them have so much mana that sws cant dispell everything. Also SW needs the first spell upgrade, when sorceress only needs slow, so you can push with sorceress before orc gets dispell SW. I actually never heard about mk pl caster strat, which sure isnt "imba".

But for UD this problem is far greater, they need tier3 and research something, orcs just need tier2.

And whether or not the spirit walkers help of course depends on aiming of the dispel, it can often dispel several slows, then advantage for the orc or it often gets 1-2 then advantage for the human.
2008-05-28 14:07:32, fenix.sein wrote:
Ensnare would take all those hippos and chimaeras out of the sky even from 700 range, so bersekers would be able to hit them btw. And about chimaera hippogryff: Its so slow to execute, that enemy will get advantage for example expansion, and therefore be easily able to defeat that army.

Ensnare has range 50 and if there is a lot of rock,wood or water the raiders cannot close in.
And i only meant it as a full tech imbalance, few games would get there.
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5 months ago
#12

Aggrobacillus

   2
Well... Level 5 TC is quite imbalanced especially if the enemy can't get any hero disable. Obiviously you shouldn't allow the enemy to have a level 5 tc, but maps like lost temple are quite nasty. Level 3 stomp leaves you one stun free second before the it cools down and strikes again.

Most of the balance problems have something to do with the way the game is played. Human on Lost Temple is something I'd rather not face. I don't know if its balanced, but it sure isn't the micro madness I want from the game. Most often human and elf also have a lot more tactics avaible than the orc and ud.

Oh and item imbalance is another big one. Getting an early tome of xp or the best aura item is a huge advantage you can't affect much through your gameplay.
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5 months ago
#13

fenix.sein

   2
And whether or not the spirit walkers help of course depends on aiming of the dispel, it can often dispel several slows, then advantage for the orc or it often gets 1-2 then advantage for the human.[


Its not hard to dispell all the slows, but slow just keeps on coming, as the sorceress never run out of mana like SW:s do. Also slow is autocast spell and SW dispell isnt. Blizzard and slow and spellbreakers really kill orc army very well.

And still about the air units, when air units hit something they slowly move in the direction they are shooting at, and that makes it easier for raiders to throw the net.

Also the buildings or whatever the chimaeras are shooting at from the 70 range are propably not right next to forest, giving em the advantage of long range, but little further, making it possible to ensnare chimaeras for example. And also about batrider counter vs air: it might cost as much to do the bats, that it costs to do the air units, but only orc gets exp there.
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5 months ago
#14

NeedsMoreKodoBeast

   1

But that doesn't seem to be a real counter, as orc has to invest rather same amounts of gold.
I thought counter is about investing far less and still be superior.


Not necessarily true. Countering units with other units often costs the same amount. It's a counter if your army is is effective against the other. That doesn't mean that countering newbie strats always has to cost the same amount of money, though.
And again, Chimaeras and hippogriffs vs. bats and wyverns = dead ne. I don't see how this is very arguable.


How do i find them among the mass of replays?


step 1: look at the rankings on this site and choose some UD players in the top 30 that you'd like to watch replays for.
step 2: go to a site that has replay downloads such as this one, replays.net, wc3l.com or ngl-one.com and watch those players.
step 3: copy what they do, and think about what they do NOT do (such as build several towers in their base.)
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5 months ago
#15

Dr34m

   2
wcreplays.com have great replays :-)
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5 months ago
#16

itsRaining-

   2
carn, no offense.

You just ask alot of questions and we give u the right answers.. why the fuck cant u accept it -.- this isnt the only thread where u do this ..
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5 months ago
#17

TritoX

   4
Am I the only one who`s realy tired of this f**king whine sh**?

Whiners go play tetris and stop talking trash! There are enough of this whine-trash-talk-posts! Nearly every rep @wcreplays.com are like "Oh Ud won! Must be the imba!", "Oh Hu won! Imba!", "Oh Elf won! Imba!", "Oh Orc won...

U whiners suck!
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5 months ago
#18

illbeatu

   1
balance topics are always flame bait. yes Imba exists. you can't argue that everything is 100% equal. Hu isn't Orc and ORc isn't Ne and NE isn't Ud. They are different. just accept there's an imbalance at any point in the game. Those who think imbalance doesn't exist must not know the truth. An apple isn't an orange, a chicken isn't a dog, monkeys aren't humans. There are differences. Chickens and dogs are both animals but they a dog would beat a chicken in a fight in the most general case(please don't give anecdotes or offbeat examples, a dog will beat a chicken in a fight most general case, period . i know someone is gonna post an anecdote about their cock fighting rooster or whatever but yea, dog > chicken). Yea your' saying "but a bird and a dog are totally different". Yes this is true. In this case we can see the obvious imbalance Dog = predator, chicken = prey. In warcraft 3 people don't often see it, and often REFUSE to see the imbalance, or try to rationalize their winning as skill rather than imbalance.
Would you rather eat oranges for the rest of yoru life or apples? Only time will tell if oranges or apples are better (given you can only choose one). Same rule applies to warcraft 3. Only time will eventually reveal the imbalances. Can't people just accept there are differences and imbalances rather than saying "no imba exists, stop whining, skill is all that matters, just counter them, watch replays of this guy getting lucky vs some guy using an imba strat poorly on some particular day on a particular map that is the least general case of the imba strat, your just noob, learn to play, you can't micro (more ad hominems), etc etc etc".
With that in mind, best thing is to know how to use ALL races and pick the one you feel will beat the odds in a tournament/ladder/opponent etc(example: you see fov, lucifer, sweet back from army, and TEd in the tournament, you might want to play orc if you face them). If you lose, you lose.
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5 months ago
#19

tony4343

   1
Applause illbeatu.. my god that speech was so dam beautiful.

Very good example! listen to him!
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5 months ago
#20

migiel_

   1
I do not know what is imbalanced about this, on tier 2 the orc can build spirit walkers which makes the sorcerors a waste of money.

ill stoped reading after that
XD
u dont know anything about game i think xd
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