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Forums \ WarCraft 3 Strategic forum \ Noob question about unit counters
6 months ago

carn
Noob question about unit counters (401 reads, 4 replies)
Hi all!
Read somewhere, that early game
1. headhunters are bad vs ghouls
2. grunts are bad vs crypt fiends

With the little experience i have and doing some math i agree to the first but do not understand the second.
With my math i get the result, that going with crypt fiends against grunts is from pure damage per second about as bad as going with headhunters vs ghouls. And second range vs melee gets better the more units are around(e.g. 50 headhunters vs 50 ghouls are completely different from 3 vs 3), so heads vs ghouls should fare slightly better than crypts vs grunts, since more units should be around.
What do i miss?

Read in this forum that late game gryphon riders beat crypt fiends with high level players. Doesn't make sense either, from pure mathematics gryphons only have chance if they get full use of storm hammer, which means they have to move into right position, which works not well with nets from crypt fiends. Second hit and run advantage of gryphons is weakened due to nets.
And third gryphon player has to be very careful not to have his army seperated by hit and run from crypt player.
What do i miss?

What are all this orc players about, who build lots of raiders against my crypt fiends?
Of course their nets can prevent burying of my cryptsto avoid dying, but i do not need burying if my units deal 150% damage to unarmoured and only receive 75% from siege.
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6 months ago
#1

chickenhawk

   1
actually grunts > fiends

and headhunters jus generally suck, dont ever bother making them, just go grunts + raiders + SW every game, with bm sh/tc. (ensnare hex/stomp ww focus = gg)

when fiends are ensnared they can be burrowed nor can they be microed.
so with a bit of focus from bm with ensnare it shud be no problem.

+ radiers with spirit link make them alot stronger (try spirit linking them with some peons to distibute the damage
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6 months ago
#2

Aggrobacillus

   2
Grunts vs crypt fiends is quite micro intense. In early game it goes something like this: You try to attack a fiend, it retreats and the rest of the fiends focus on one grunt. Even if you manage to deal considerable amount of damage to a fiend, it gets coiled by the dk. You can buy the boots of speed on blademaster or use a speed scroll to break the fiend retreating, but its still quite risky, especially against lvl 2 dk.

I guess using a lot of raider means that they rely on the damage from blademaster. Investing too much on grunts is a bad idea anyway, since the ud is most likely going to add destros later on anyway. Mass raiders vs mass fiends means that the armies deal quite little damage to each other, while the bm focusing ensnared fiends out is still a formiddable dps factor compared to a dk.

Fiends vs Gryphons sounds a bit weird to me. I'm quite confident they both deal nasty amounts of dmg to each other even though the armor/damage system would predict win for the fiends. At least wind riders deal huge damage even to medium armor when massed.
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6 months ago
#3

chelom

   2
yea grunt=fiends noone is better ofc in a 1vs1 a grunt will win but u have focus, is easy to focus with all fiends in 1 grunt that all the grunts in 1 fiend, then u have coil and the BM damage quite balanced, just the part the Dk have no mana and ud have to run away. raiders are really strong vs ud cause first the coil have cd so if u focus enough the fiend will die sooner or later cause it cant get away, second it can get away to avoid further damage, cause the net.

gryphon vs fiends well remember u have to net them so u wont have all ure fiends focusin but all the enemy gryphon will so gryphon do more damage to a unit compare to the damage the fiends do, well that what i think
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6 months ago
#4

carn

   1
about raiders:
my mistake, raiders get 75% damage from pierce, so damage taken is not too bad.
But my Problem are players, that go with 2 heroes, 8 raiders and 2 grunts against my fiends. I do not understand why they do not use 3 raiders and 7 grunts instead, they can still net often enough, their damage taken is slightly higher, but grunts also have more hits and espeically their damage output increases drastically.

fiends vs gryphons:
the gryphons cannot focus either, because - assuming good players - after a few gryphons are caught the fiends can slightly retreat. They have greater firing range, so the enemy either takes a few free hits or he has too close in with only part of his army.


headhunters and fineds:
i dont understand why the headhunters are thought to be so much worse than the fiends. headhunters are from damage output and hp as good or bad against ghouls as are fiends vs grunts, actually the headhunters are a few percent better.
It seems to be the hero that makes a difference, because without hero the difference between fiends and headhunters on tier 1 is small.
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