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Forums \ StarCraft II Forum \ Choice of player UI preference in SC2
3 months ago

moebius_string
Choice of player UI preference in SC2 (859 reads, 18 replies)
This is a possible fix for the Starcraft 2 Development team to consider in dealing with the contentios issue of player UI preference in Starcraft 2. I'm putting it out there to see what knowleadgable people think and can possibly add. I don't want any MBS wars,so if you don't agree just say why.

Blizzard being a company that tries to be as inclusive as possible to the concerns of its diverse player base, has found itself in a quagmire with Starcraft 2 development. How to please casual gamers who prefer to play RTS games with features that other RTS games currently sport and competitive gamers who prefer the traditional UI.

This approach would have the benefit that it would alleviate the frustrations that casuals
and hardcore gamers currently have over changes that have been made to the original UI.

I realize that many may come away from this thinking that this request will serve to create another fault line in the Starcraft community with the competitive community and casuals on both sides arguing over the merits of competing UIs. Alas one has only to look at many SC2 fan site forums and see that the community is already at odds over these issues. Why not accept the this and provide an option that pleases both?

This also brings up the questions of how such as system would affect competitive play and standing? There already exists Starcraft play and current trends would continue without upset.

Its no doubt Blizzards hopes to have the community wholeheartedly embrace Starcraft 2, and to Blizzards merits they are trying to make Starcraft 2 to appeal to both casuals and hardcore gamers. The fact is this fails to realize that both communities hold different values and value different things in the game.

For some the UI is an expression of their values, so telling them otherwise is a recipe for failure. Trying to bridge the gap between two disparate viewpoints can sometimes lead to an uninspiring game that is of two minds and leads to both groups feeling let down and disappointed. Therefore,it is this articles hope that Blizzard can set a new standard in game development, by making a more inclusive gaming experience for both casual and competitive gamers, while also respecting those differences that remain among them.
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3 months ago
#1

Da_venom

   3
you would only divide starcraft as it is already very divided
fastest and bgh gamers
and low money gamers

furthermore you have the ums gamers

which is by far the huge majority if u ask me

casual gamers don't tend to get competitive while hardcore gamers would
hardcore gamers have the potentional to make a casual gamers a hardcore gamer
if the level isn't too far apart from both parties

moreover blizzard isn't interested in SC2 being competitive
they have give the UMS makers a huge trade off for using their editor which includes ALOT of features

which supports ums once again
it's a fact that ums>melee by gametime
so blzzard will be concentrating on the ums since that will run hard

if there is a competitive sc2 then it's just extra $$
:p
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3 months ago
#2

champignones

   3
there has to be a midpoint cause there are people who complain now that starcraft isnt a strategy game and that is more a clickfest than anything else, i completely disagree with them, if they want that, then go play chess or something like a turn based strategy game cause, they are just thinking of a easy game( not saying chess is a easy game, actually is quite complicated ;D), like you dont do nothing and you win, and that reminds me wc3 concerning macro, so thats why they are angry about that , because they dont understand the complexities of scbw and want to slow down the game by making it the easiest way possible. if you want to be good in a game, is not just about thinking and doing is also how fast can you control things and how accurate your reflects are to do so, so people who says sc is a clickfest are trully noobs who get pawned everyday at b.net.
at the same time, i dont want to MBS to be removed completely cause its a new UI and without that sounds like we are being to selfish, and only wanting the game for pro gamers or mid gamers. they should at least reach to a mid point where the MBS can become as challenging as the old UI but at the same time attractive to new gamers and casual gamers. sorry if i ofend someone, its just what i think.
and by the way casual gamers only care about graphics i saw a guy saying dawn of war II will become the best RTS just by seeing the trailer full of explosions and lasers, and i am pretty sure if sc2 will put that to its build everybody will complain on how the graphics will ruin the gameplay and stuff like that, what shows why sc and sc2 always are one step ahead of DOW and his sequel. sc thinks in gameplay and Dow (which is quite unbalance i must add) only cares of graphics, explosions and special effects.
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3 months ago
#3

moebius_string

   1
2008-09-01 18:50:28, Da_venom wrote:
you would only divide starcraft as it is already very divided
fastest and bgh gamers
and low money gamers

furthermore you have the ums gamers

which is by far the huge majority if u ask me

casual gamers don't tend to get competitive while hardcore gamers would
hardcore gamers have the potentional to make a casual gamers a hardcore gamer
if the level isn't too far apart from both parties

moreover blizzard isn't interested in SC2 being competitive
they have give the UMS makers a huge trade off for using their editor which includes ALOT of features

which supports ums once again
it's a fact that ums>melee by gametime
so blzzard will be concentrating on the ums since that will run hard

if there is a competitive sc2 then it's just extra $$
:p






think the tendency is to look at this as producing a split when all your doing is acknowledge that people want to interact with a product diffently, and providing them with that choice. Products in other industres are going in this direction, yet games largely lag behind with primitive customization options and one size fits all approaches.

You do bring up a good point however, it may not be cost effective in Blizzard's eyes just try and make some compromises to please just enough people.
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3 months ago
#4

Da_venom

   3
too much options makes the game less interesing in my point of view
starcraft was so FRIGGING easy to learn
but so hard to master..so very hard
:P

if you put people in a choice between the easy way or hard way
i bet more than 60% will take the easy way

giving people more options only makes things more confusing
then it actually should be
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3 months ago
#5

Killer[1]

   2
I'm sorry I may sound stupid but I have good knowledge of english and still I didn't get one thing out of the whole message (and I did read it all).

First of all (please tell a simple guy like me) what is UI and MBS.

Second I agree that currently SC is a bit a clicky and maybe (having in mind the inovation in computers) it would be possible to ease the things a bit while still leaving the competitive side of the game intact.

And yes, guys are right UMS players are far more than MELEE players.
When I first started playing Europe I forgot what it is to play a real 1v1. Yes it is more complicated and requres a lot more concentration but is far more rewarding. Now I only play Micro UMS to train myself and the last time I did it was a few months back.
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3 months ago
#6

Vaphell

   3
UI = user interface
MBS = Multiple Building Selection (ability to mass select structures => multiple buildings under single hotkey)
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3 months ago
#7

moebius_string

   1
2008-09-01 21:17:06, Da_venom wrote:

if you put people in a choice between the easy way or hard way
i bet more than 60% will take the easy way

giving people more options only makes things more confusing
then it actually should be




I'm not going to toss around numbers and make assumptions on how much of whatever audience likes so and so, because no one has really done an official poll on this, but it is eveident that these issues still matter to a noticeable amount of players by reading any forum.

I diasagree on limiting options to the player on account that players will be easily confused. Denying the player options for a PC game somehow seems odd to me. I have yet to hear a gamer complain he was given to many options, usually it is the other way around. Learning to play Starcraft was no doubt confusing when we all started playing, but somehow we managed. This solution would be far simpler and as easy as clicking a button. In the case of online play, the automatic match making system would be doing the work.

Blizzard even stated theoretically themselves that they could do a roll back on the UI, if they could not bridge the gap. For a company with the resources like Activision/Blizzard, this seems like a cop out. The soution is not one of complexity, but mindset and will.
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3 months ago
#8

moebius_string

   1
Thinking it over, there is nothing that really requires players to play on different servers, so I edited out that suggestion. Some players would be playing with a UI that makes things easier while others would be doing the same thing, just maually and without additional assistance. Sounds like something that is doable.
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2 months ago
#9

GooseBoy

   3
Lol, what do you guys suggest, if it is so easy to bridge the gap between pros and newbs?
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2 months ago
#10

szedrus

   1
I would simply suggest that Blizzard sit down and think about what made Starcraft a piece of software which is still going strong after ten years.

I would suggest them first an ethical approach : the people who have been around SC are the main reasons why this game have achieved so much. Casual gamers will buy it and will move on. From this point of view Blizzard should first listen to what old fans have to say and only then should they favor casual gamers.

From a financial point of view (always the money) the case is even simpler. What prolongs the lifespan of a game? Competition, compeition in video game industry equals MULTIPLAYER. Think of Quake 3 arena, Unreal Tornament, CS, Team Fortress...etc. Should they remove or damage the competitive capabilities of SC2 they are doing direct damage to their financial state.

You asked suggestions, mine is this : Blizzard should either make an ethically and fininacialy full proof decision as mentioned above or at least implement a switch to toggle between gameplays. The split of community is NOT because of this switch it is because of SKILLS and the switch would only allow skills to develop.
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2 months ago
#11

grots
they should make it so you can only click on one unit, and no hotkeys
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2 months ago
#12

Daflame

   1
2008-09-03 15:38:35, grots wrote:
they should make it so you can only click on one unit, and no hotkeys


No.

My right hand will get sore, Starcraft will loose half of its physical skill and the awesomeness of something tapping on the keyboard 500 times a minute will be lost.



Here's what I wrote in a topic last month with a simmilar discussion...

Because WC3 is less focussed on macro, players (when they are not attacking their opponents) are doing "neutral" things like creeping and collecting items.

Considering Starcraft has no creeps, heroes or items, then I expect there to be a big emphasis on macro. When you only have two resources (minerals and gas) that do not require a lot of effort to collect, then I don't see how the game could fill the time when you are not fighting your opponent with advanced user interface. So I think the user interface should be decent enough to allow modern gamers to pick it up with ease, but still not allow players to skip too many actions.

I do not support automining, or the idle peasant button, but I do support things like the 25+ grouping of units and grouping of buildings.

And besides, the majority of the reason as to why Blizzard wants to put in this advanced user interface is to help noobs, but these noobs who play offline would not really care if there is no automining or idle peasant buttons. And remember, I am sure there are some people who are going to buy Starcraft II and let it be the first game or strategy game they ever played. When I played my first startegy game in 2004, Age of Empires, I did not mind the lack of advanced user interface, but when I played Age of Empires III and returned to play Age of Empires one day, I found it very hard to get a grip over it.

And how about making it so that their is an option which allows players to choose between advanced and decent user interface, but online games that count towards the score/rank of the player must be played in decent user interface.

I just think, that Starcraft II must not go too far with user interface, as speed still takes skill.
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2 months ago
#13

jcr2001

   3
I actually do support this type of choice. It could just be called a tournament mode or something, up to the user to choose. If I were to play SC2 single-player, I would prob opt for the "improved UI" because all I'm interested in is the story and getting a feel for the units. If I want to play competitively, I'd rather a reduced UI. I like the suggestion above, or maybe ladder games can only count when there tournament mode is enabled.

As for those who say that it would further split the community, I somewhat agree, but I don't think it would matter much. Like for example, right now, there's pro-money mappers vs anti-money mappers. The anti-money mappers should be able to win the other party. If there is any argument between a "improved UI" player vs "reduced UI" player, the "reduced UI" player could just challenge the other player to his rules, and still win.

Anyway, even if "improved UI" is here to stay, there is still bound to have splits in the community, and SC2 won't become as skill based than SC1, reducing the upper limit of human play.
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2 months ago
#14

grots
Is it that hard to send a probe to mine?
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2 months ago
#15

jcr2001

   3
No it isn't, but it is hard to send it to mine when you're so caught up with many other things. If you created a worker and didn't send it to mine, you lose not just the cost of the worker, but also the cost of how much minerals you could have possibly obtained, which is increased every second you waste. At high levels, this bit of minerals can be pivotal.
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2 months ago
#16

GooseBoy

   3
An option in the game itself its a very good idea. It depends on how blizzard lays out these options as some people are lazy enough to not give some time to navigate thru these options and rather complain in forums about automining etc.
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2 months ago
#17

grots
Will they split the probes for you at start? they should.

Also I want like automicro or automacro
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2 months ago
#18

jcr2001

   3
Initially I was kind of supportive of Blizzard adding automining and MBS and such, as long as more things were added in compensation to make the game more difficult. However, I felt that by doing so, the soul of Starcraft would be lost, as in, it wouldn't feel like Starcraft, then SC2 would not feel like a worthy successor in some people's eyes.

What I'm trying to say is that, I don't mind these improved features, as long as it turns out to be a deep game with high skill requirements. However, Starcraft is an exception to me because tinkering too much would make the sequel feel like a different game.

Let's say we make a Chess 2 with bigger board, new units, and able to use computer engines to aid. The best players would still win, but it just wouldn't feel like a worthy sequel. Of course, this example is really really extreme.
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