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Forums \ Strategic forum \ Blown split? NP
3 months ago

barnbum
Blown split? NP (423 reads, 18 replies)


I'm posting this discovery on principle. Sorry if it is old news.


A blown split is not a problem for Terran. I have done some timings and found that the Terran player has up to 3 seconds of time to burn. Even with a perfect split, the CC will be idle for 3 seconds between the first and second SCVs. So if you are late starting your first SCV its no prob cause it just means there will be a shorter dead period between the first and second SCVs.

On the practical side, this slack even helps cover your butt if you have a spaz attack and completely blow the split. I have had splits so bad my first SCV was a full five seconds behind the pros, and recovered 3 of those seconds when the second SCV came out.

What all this means is, correct Terran start is to split and THEN start your SCV, assuming your split takes you less than 3 seconds. If you are slower than that, the SCV should start first.

Maybe someone who does good splits could test this out. It works for me.

And no noob flames thanks.
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3 months ago
#1

fym.lpjuunin

   1
Well, it only takes 1/100th of a second (Michael Phelps statistics anyone? lol) to just click S rapidly when game starts, THEN split. You want that 5th scv out exactly after your first 4scvs did their initial mining, no later. Waiting 2-3seconds to make your 5th worker puts you back by 1supply advantage, so in very early game, let's say your opponent has 6workers, you'll only have 5, he has 8, you'll have 7. In early game phase where even 1-2 extra workers mining can make an economic difference and BO timing, it's crucial to keep up.
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3 months ago
#2

Lim.Yo.Hwan

   1
give us 2 replays in comparison.
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3 months ago
#3

Kakashi

   1
Man 2 seconds turn into 5 seconds few seconds later and that seconds turn into more seconds later and if u aren`t perfect with rest u ll get a shitload of seconds disadvantage and this can become your main reason for loosing.

I found out that when doing 9olpool , scouting with 11th drones makes u 30-40 seconds (early on , first 5 minuntes) behind comparing if u don`t drone scout at all ie.

What are u gonna do now ?

:O
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3 months ago
#4

fym.lpjuunin

   1
2008-08-17 05:22:34, Kakashi wrote:
Man 2 seconds turn into 5 seconds few seconds later and that seconds turn into more seconds later and if u aren`t perfect with rest u ll get a shitload of seconds disadvantage and this can become your main reason for loosing.

I found out that when doing 9olpool , scouting with 11th drones makes u 30-40 seconds (early on , first 5 minuntes) behind comparing if u don`t drone scout at all ie.

What are u gonna do now ?

:O


That is the feared domino theory of screwing up splits or making workers after split...seconds you've lost doubles over time after a mess-up, until it just explodes in your face.

Overall, here's the outcome, and I've said it in my first post. If you make worker after split, either accidently or intentionally, you're going to be behind by 1supply pretty much the entire 3minutes of very early-game. In warfare, you DO NOT give your opponent the advantage you could very well avoid in giving him. ^^
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3 months ago
#5

StrictlyD

   1
Let's think of it this way. For example, let's say this certain mineral patch only has 64 minerals. Depending on how the split is performed (or if it is even performed), many different outcomes occur. By getting the fifth worker out before splitting, you would be even in supply with your opponent, whom -let us assume- perfected his split. Also assuming the current user did a poor split where only one worker was not split properly, the opponent would only gain a 8 mineral advantage. It would be like a seesaw, your opponent has +8 then 0 then +8 then 0. While we include the +8 would produce another worker faster and gets more resources per minute, in the end [late game], theres only 64 minerals to mine from that patch. That's my way of thinking about it. Feel free to add or disregard any of my thoughts ^^
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3 months ago
#6

sofie

   3
Im sorry but you say : No noob flame !! Il give you 5 minutes to try out your math once again. If you use 2 second more to get your first scv cause you split before making an scv, il let you figure out the rest, if you still cant figure it out PM me and il help you out
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3 months ago
#7

Lord_of_Chaos

   17
I would like to see some examples replays. And instead of comparing when your 5th and 6th scv comes out, look at when you get your first marine instead. That's a more crucial point for a terran (in tvz at least) when he's getting rushed or rushing (where a few seconds matter the most).
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3 months ago
#8

Saline

   3
People are greatly over-complicating the math, because they're thinking of mineral comparisons versus time comparisons. Here's what I mean by the two:

Mineral comparison: at time t, you have X minerals and you opponent has Y minerals.

Time comparison: at time t, your opponent has X minerals. At time t+i, you have X minerals.

If you mis-manage a split, then as time increases, the mineral comparison will give a greater divide. This is because, as people say, your opponent will have more SCVs mining than you due to his slight advantage of being a few seconds earlier. But of course, you will catch up with his time a small amount later--that amount being exactly the time you lost during the split. It's not complicated, the time doesn't fluctuate, and minutes don't "propagate" and turn into more minutes.

With a terrible, terrible split you'll be 8 minerals 5 seconds behind your opponent. This will only matter if you and your opponent are perfectly evenly matched. If not, the split doesn't mean a damn thing.
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3 months ago
#9

StrictlyD

   1
At least Saline agrees with me ^^
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3 months ago
#10

anwh

   1
making your 5th scv and having your initial 4 scv:s return their first grabs of minerals faster than your opponent do give you a faster barrack than your opponent in a TvT. but yeah, it's really small margins.
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3 months ago
#11

MeSaber

   1
i know so many people that dont give a shit about splitting and they are good as hell and kick anyones butt even if they are after in the game ;p split doesnt matter much at all.. its just COOL to split perfectly..
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3 months ago
#12

LML

 (Forum moderator)   18
2008-08-17 05:09:21, lp_lpjuunin wrote:
Well, it only takes 1/100th of a second (Michael Phelps statistics anyone? lol) to just click S rapidly when game starts, THEN split. You want that 5th scv out exactly after your first 4scvs did their initial mining, no later. Waiting 2-3seconds to make your 5th worker puts you back by 1supply advantage, so in very early game, let's say your opponent has 6workers, you'll only have 5, he has 8, you'll have 7. In early game phase where even 1-2 extra workers mining can make an economic difference and BO timing, it's crucial to keep up.


well, your 2nd worker will pop at the EXACT same time as always, just your 1st one will pop, cuz you will never be able to make your 2nd worker RIGHT after your 1st popped, with the 3seconds your CC is idle, you will have these 3seconds anyways, later on, thus if you make that scv a bit later (the 1st one), you still won't be always 1 worker behind, since you will both start the 2nd at the same time.
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3 months ago
#13

iG.Valio

   8
If this really would matter so much zergs should not scout with drone. But it doesn't matter so much. The more skilled will win, not the guy who is 3 seconds late with 5th or 6th scv.
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3 months ago
#14

fym.lpjuunin

   1
2008-08-17 16:00:24, uT)Valio wrote:
If this really would matter so much zergs should not scout with drone. But it doesn't matter so much. The more skilled will win, not the guy who is 3 seconds late with 5th or 6th scv.


It doesn't matter by a long shot, but it all comes down to "getting what's best". Like I said, being 1supply ahead/behind is a tiny margin, harldy noticable, and will likely make little difference in outcome of early game. But wouldn't you want that that 3second fast scv anyways? I mean there's nothing wrong with refusing chocolate, but getting it is even better.

That's why you make scv/probe/drone BEFORE split, it only takes a fraction of a second anyway. In fact, it CAN make a difference, like LoC said, in high risk rush mu's like ZvZ, TvZ, PvZ, TvP, etc. getting that barracks 20seconds late can be fatal.
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3 months ago
#15

Da_venom

   3
splitt hardly matters i think
you can repair it afterwards
the thing is that you want every worker to a different patch

for example
if there is 8 patches

and you split is fucked you can manual recover your scv to go to a different patch

and still maintain fast income

for example
EVEN if u had a perfect split but your 5th workers goes to the same mineral patch as worker number 3 then it has to wait
since ai is bugged there:p
or it wil go to another patch
and you lose some mili seconds

and then you would be fairly even

if that situation occured
it's all depended on worker spread
either late or early
never have 2 workers on same mineral patch xD
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3 months ago
#16

Trizzek

   8
So many replies, can't be bothered to read all of them. :P
But to put it simple; it's not about having an idle CC like the thread-starter suggests... it's about having as many SCV's mining at all times that matters. So to create that 5:th worker 2-3 seconds later means it'll start mining 2-3 seconds later as well...
When the cursor starts on top of the CC it's easier to create the SCV first anyway so...
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3 months ago
#17

Vis

   2
I've tested this, it makes very little difference, but I prefer making the 5th worker first. The more workers you have faster, the more minerals you'll get in the long run..
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3 months ago
#18

barnbum

   3
Ok, if you split first then start your scv, you will lose some mining time when the first scv comes out a bit late... But I think the point still stands that if the delay on starting that first scv is less than 3 seconds, the second scv will still come out on time. So if you make an error, you can still get back most of the lost time.

There is a built in cushion there.
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