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Z Trouble
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2 months ago
Banzuke
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(962 reads, 26 replies)
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Okay, I played two games on iccup just now, both of which remind me of my two biggest problems.
Here's the first replay. It's a ZvZ.
http://screplays.info/files/560.rep
I don't understand ZvZ. If I go for a quick muta tech, other Z just makes spores and takes his nat. Or, even better, I get ling rushed either early on or before my spire kicks in. If I don't go for quick tech, I just always get contained or some other crap.
I should have won that game, but it seemed like he had more mutas than me. Even though I got another expo. =/
Here's another fun problem of mine.
http://screplays.info/files/561.rep
This is a ZvT.
I keep reading "GO MUTAS MID GAME ZVT".
What the hell is this all about?
Here's my problem.
If I make mutas, T goes for an all in mnm/bat rush. The lings melt to firebats, and the mutas can't handle this kind of rine amount. I made 5 sunks, but there were just too many rines. My lurks weren't there yet, which is okay according to this strat, the idea is you get them at the end of all your mutas being made.
The only good thing was that I noticed he had put turrents only on one side. I took advantage of this. I only took out a couple of SCV, but I bought myself him having no mining time for a few moments.
Also, half the ZvT replays I watch, the T makes like 1 turrent. WTF?
But, against an even more expierenced T, what happens when I go up against retarded amounts of base defences?
I won't contain him, I won't kill anything, and I'll just get overrun at my main.
I think I'm going back to lurkling. At least I could fight the first tier of tech units.
Seriously, what is the point of mutas ??
Thanks for replies. |
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Strategic forum \
Z Trouble \
Reply #8
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2 months ago
mrbobby
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ok i will comment on the zvt game
if you are doing any build which goes 9 lord then drones when lord finishes, don't do extractor trick. just wait for lord to finish then build to 12. its better. dont ask me to prove it, i just remember an extensive thread with good players saying this and no arguments ;p
why wait so long to build drone #15? i guess just a mistake on your part, but that doesnt matter as long as you know what you're doing wrong
gas should've come slightly sooner, depending on how many lings i need to build/if i need to build a sunk right away, i will take it at the same time i build 3rd hatch.
why was your lord not watching his natural? you should be watching the nat at this stage, with lord or ling. if you had, you would have seen FE. = less lings, no sunk yet. or just 1 sunk, no lings. or no sunk, more lings for pressure? you could have easily taken second gas when you started lair. which is optimum point i think, assuming you dont need to worry about enemy attack yet... which you didnt.
wow, ok, you have massive over defence. even if he hadn't FE'd. which you should know about. Especially seeing as your lord was in the perfect place to scout for the natural being taken. and you don't need to morph more than one creep to sunk until he's actually on his way to you. if the lings are for defence only, again, you don't need to build many until he's actually on his way.
and what was with the 4th hatch? your BO was for 3hatch muts... (considering that you didnt know he FE'd, that is- if you knew that, then you might want the 4th hatch... but you didn't know it.)
evo chamber at this stage.... what for? you're relying on mutas for your whole offence force at the start of the game, so ground upgrades have no use. waste.
as has been pointed out, only 2 drones on gas- serious mistake. mutas are gonna be toooooo late.....
ok, spire half way done, still not scouted his natural succesfully. you send lings but completely forget about the lord. you should have lord watching his natural, and you should have a ling waiting just beyond his infantry force (you should have had this in place a loooong time ago) to watch for when he moves towards you. this is a unit which should be KEPT ALIVE when he does move out, so you can keep watching his force to see if it keeps moving or if it was just killing your scout.
basically your scouting needs massive work.
ok just saw you did this with ling, although didn't keep it alive/send another.
Ookay.... you over droned. Zerg should not have excess drones mining, because larva are too precious. (in theory vs FE you should have another expo which you could've held, and drone'd, but considering you were playing as if vs no fe... then tooo many drones. you should have been saving money/larva for muta. you should be able to pop 9 muta when spire finishes.
no point building hydra den until after muta coz you dont have the spare res to research lurk. this should be done during harass with muta.
Okay. I know why you dont see how muta harass works. you dont know how to muta harass.
back to this in a sec, but some points to catch up to this *the first attack*
1. you spent loads on defence waaaaaaaaay before you needed it- puts you at a disadvantage. I assume you know and understand why, that defence needs to be placed as late as possible?
2. He fe'd. A zerg needs more bases than terran, to keep even with unit production. I assume you know this too? he was even with you. you didn't stand a chance. his macro kicked in, you gg'd out, at end.
3. toooo many ling! you're meant to be containing him with muta harass- why build lings?!
if your BO had been better, with the improvements i said, you would have had muta harassing him before that first attack that killed all your mutas. In other words, the attack would never have come.
Right... the attack. your sunks should be in a straight line at right angles to the direction from which he attack. yours was a straight line ... perpendicular to your base. Wrong, coz he didnt attack in a straight line directly from the right of your natural. He never would, ... coz there's a cliff there. Next, sunks should all (or as many as possible) be able to fire at once. Don't let the enemy fight vs 1 sunk at a time, or you make it too easy for the medics ;p
next, let as many of the enemy engage with sunks before you send in lings, mutas, drones, whatever units you defend with. you dont want to let them KILL the sunks first, but, sunks have much more life than ling or drone or muta.... so let them try and kill sunks while you do damage with lings and muta.
this was completely defeated because you attacked from BEHIND with muta, meaning ALL the marines at the back fired on muta. if you had attacked from the front, a) they would have taken down any firebats in the attack, coz obviously bats are in front because they're melee, and b) the marines would've kept firing on sunks as they had been. only a few further back would have fired on the mutas. lings should be nicely spread out behind the sunks ready to attack in a WAVE, not a LINE. and you should have them on hold position so they dont run out the moment the first shot is fired on your sunks.
Muta/ling chews through small to medium MM forces, when done properly.
Righto's.... so you survived the attack and rebuilt your mutas. so... you go to attack. Right, here's where you need to know how to Muta Harass!
first, go find decent threads telling you how. then go watch loads of pro replays of it being done properly (most modern ZvT ;p )... try watching Koreans and also lower skill players. obviously still good players, but sometimes koreans are just so far above your ability trying to learn from them is trying to achieve something that you never can.
So... my basic guide to muta harass (ps im not that good ;p but i do know roughly what i'm on about, i promise)
Oh, ps, can someone please find a link to the muta harass trainor? or you, mr OP, could just go search it. search for thread 'muta harass trainer' or something ;p
anyways.
STACK your muta- to do this, select all your muta, then add an overlord, a larva, a burrowed unit or a trapped unit to the group. do this by selecting your mutas, then hold 'shift' and click the unit to add. then put this group on a hotkey.
basically, your mutas are now grouped with a unit that is nowhere near them (the lord you pick must be far away so it doesnt catch up, and obviously this doesnt work once you have lord speed researched).
now, they will stack up to a very small point, all on top of each other. advantages- you can control them precisely, making micro massively easier. they will fire as one, making turret/scv/marine, medic or firebat kills much much easier. they will, with a little micro, fight with 'combined' life, ie as long as you keep flying out and in range of your enemy they will target new mutas each time, and your mutas are stacked so enemy can't manually target weak mutas. also, i think its possible that ai auto-targets units with more life. not sure about that though.
ok, grouping with-
larva- no need to worry about the larva going awol and you get distracted from your micro. however, you can't USE this larva for units, and, if your multitasking isnt pretty good, you cant use any larva from that hatch (in case you accidently use the one you need hotkeyed).
lord- you can use all larva without worry ;p BUT you must pay attention to make sure the lord doesnt fly into enemy units and die. ie eventuall you must send it away and use a new one.
burrowed unit- you dont want to research burrow, waste of gas ;p
trapped unit- effort?
basically, lord is best, larva is a not too bad second best.
go do a feck load of research into the kind of micro you can do with stacked mutas at this stage of the game. if anyone else here wants to talk in depth about this, you can. i would post link to the saviour famous muta micro first public use thingey, but i think it wouldn't be helpful without some analysis/explanation, which i can't be bothered to do. any youtube saviour muta micro if you want to see ;p but basically muta can pick off units from the edge of large groups of infantry without taking barely any damage, ditto killing large amounts of turrets. hence why terran need turrets AND army in their base to def vs muta harass.
keep in mind however that what is possible with mutas is differant on LAN and BNET latency. dont try to do LAN micro on BNET.
Remember, during harass, most important thing is to KEEP THE MUTA ALIVE. the continued threat of harass is more important than actually doing some damage (if your mutas die doing that damage).
his turret placement was awful. you couldv stopped the second attack from leaving his base, with those 9 mutas. easily until you had lurks and your expansion up.
erm, yeh, that's everything i can think of now. any questions or things you want explaining more/better/differantly, just ask. but, it is not a problem with muta harass that stops it working, its a problem with how YOU play muta harass.
oh, but on the positive side, although your BO wasnt great, your basic play was pretty solid, you didnt have idle drones or anything awful like that, so you deffinitely have the ability to pull off the succesful muta harass you yearn for. your apm was also reasonably high, was that spam, or not? because you're ahead on the multitasking game if that was all useful actions. you just need to learn what actions you should actually bne taking, and when.
oh, by the way, im not an amazing player myself- i accept that i may have made errors, and although i believe i am correct, if i'm not, then whoever notices, please feel free to point it out :) |
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This post was edited by its author @ 2 months ago
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Strategic forum \
Z Trouble \
Reply #13
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2 months ago
mrbobby
2
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looked at the other game btw. im not nearly as knowledgeable about zvz unfortunately, but there were some pretty obvious things. #1 although you had gas, lair and spire all far before him, you killed an expo he barely mined from, and you made him spend for many spore's while you didn't have to, you still managed to be at pretty much the same stage with mutas. thats because you didnt start building them until barely before him. if you've both got the same number of bases........ then if you're both building muts constantly, the person who starts first has most. but you could've started before him. so you should've.
Also, 2 drones on gas!! well, this alone will lose you ANY zvz game vs an evenly matched or slightly worse player.
anyways, right, you basically completely throw away the massive advantage you had. considering you were both on 1 base (applys for whenever enemy has equal or less bases) and you could have had mutas first, all you needed to do was contain and wait until you had a force big enough to easily overrun him.
anyway, you attacked his base a couple of times, which was stupid. you didnt scout first and, well, a battle you might have won in the open was almost impossible to win in his base with all base defence, when you have that small number of units :/ you throw your forces away without scouting- look before you leap.
and obviously, he snuck an expo on you. if you are ahead, then you need 200% to concentrate on scouting, because if you're ahead, then the only way he should be able to get back ahead is sneak something- a drop, a fast tech, sneak expo's, whatever- basically if you know about it, you can counter it, and you're still ahead. dont get lazy once you're winning! in fact, NEVER get lazy ;p always give 120% to a game, even if you think its going to be easy- you improve much much faster, and... you dont get caught out making stupid mistakes like letting enemy sneak an expo when you're doing better than them ;p
basically, 4 points in this game
1) hold lings at top of ramp! then you can defeat larger forces :/ dont let him in your base if you can possibly help it. then they can run around and micro and harass and scout
2) dont attack into a base without scouting- ie dont throw away your forces! you did it with lings after killing his expo, as well as with muta/ling force.
3) PUT THREE DRONES ON GAS!!!!! (just for your info, 4 is actually optimum amount, but its not a big differance from 3, and shouldnt be done unless you just have completely spare drones (unlikely ;p ) or you really need more gas)
4) SCOUTSCOUTSCOUT! you need to KNOW when he trys to expo. just send a ling to the natural of each empty starting point, and put them on patrol from there to the main. easy..... so do it.
apart from that there is only the thing about why you teched so much faster, which is really good, then just didnt build muta.
you did everything right in this game you needed to win, you just kept throwing it away ;p |
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Strategic forum \
Z Trouble \
Reply #16
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2 months ago
noobonline
2
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Nice, Lord, congratulations for you.
You, like a moderator, saying that I'm a idiot or a flamer. Very good manner. You are the Gosugamers.net here. You CAN'T post something like that.
Second point that I would like to post.
I'm not wherever you think that I'm. You don't know me, but I can help you:
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/thread.php?id=241972
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/thread.php?id=260509
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/thread.php?id=213482
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/thread.php?id=129015
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/thread.php?id=124946
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/thread/127796/20
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/thread/240886/20
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/thread.php?id=128700
Those and a lot of others very good comments that I did. I'm a very acting member with a lot of manner. I've been taking part of forum, gosubets, news, every single part of this site.
If you didn't like my comment, I'm sorry, I can't delight everyone, but you can't, mainly been a forum adminstrador, tell me that I'm a idiot. You can't. And you know that, better than me. |
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