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Forums \ Strategic forum \ PVT – Have you seen this done before?
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6 months ago

KacherMB
PVT – Have you seen this done before? (2557 reads, 60 replies)
Recently I have been trying a new strategy when I am protoss against a terran. I start off one gate and pump units from the gate until the cybernetics core completes. I try keeping a close eye on the terran expansion and as soon as they expand I match it. After the cybernetics core completes I have been making two stargates and I will produce two or four scouts depending on what my scouting discovers (these are the only scouts I will make all game).

I have found that if the terran tries pushing hard that I can easily push them away because they almost never have goliaths yet. I then fly directly to the terran base and harass them with the scouts. My main target is the scv building the armory if it is not complete yet. Next I target any scvs trying to complete turrets. Sometimes if I am lucky I am able to catching a floating ebay in a place it cannot land and quickly destroy it so they cannot build any turrets until they build another. I have been successfully in making the terran spend his time and resources building turrets at his main and expansion. Normally by the time the terran gets the armory up they over reacts and starts pumping out a ton of goliaths instead of a well balanced mix.

In the mean time at my base I build a citadel and templar archives and work on leg enhancement when the citadel is complete. Normally during this time I slap down 3 or 4 more gates (I only had one before) and start cranking the units. As soon as the templar archives is complete I get an arbital tribunal. This is where laying down two stargates at the start really helps me, I am not only able to get two early scouts (one is not anywhere near effective enough) but I am able to produce two arbiters at the same time while researching stasis.

If the terran starts to push out, I try to stall them until the arbiters are complete. I have found that these quick arbiters work very well in dealing with the terran army when they attack. From this point I can go heavy units with templars or easily transition over to carriers depending on what my opponent is doing.

The negatives to this build is that I am forgoing getting early observers and forge (I normally get the forge after I start building the stargates, but if it appears they are going 2 fact and I have a feeling they might try hitting with a lot of vults I will get it earlier). I have to be very careful about letting vultures get into my main and harass. If it is a map with a choke, I try to keep a dragoon in my choke at all times. If I feel like they are trying something crazy like a vulture drop I normally have scouts by then, but just in case they get the dropship in my base I try keep my dragoons around my mineral line so they would not be able to do much damage.
I think a big key to this strategy is not to let your scouts die. If they do have early goliaths just harass them where the goliaths are not. Every moment you slow them down from attacking you is more time you are building up your zealot/goon/arbiter army.

I know this build would probably never become popular because no pros use it, but I do not think that means that it is not a viable build for competitive play. If you are interested in trying it out, let me know how it works for you.
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6 months ago
#1

waRmt

   2
maybe vs low level play but better terran will see something fishy, prolly go for the good old flash build or cheese and then you lose before you even get to type GG ^^
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6 months ago
#2

INTrO)PinSTripe
Shitty build.. Scouts are almost never cost effective, surely you can spend those 1k+ minerals and 600 700 gas on something better T.T
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6 months ago
#3

mihkeL

   2
replays ?
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6 months ago
#4

impsy

   1
Its well thought out but it seems that its used in only certain situations.
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6 months ago
#5

KacherMB

   1
2008-05-30 21:10:01, InTrO)Pinstripe wrote:
Shitty build.. Scouts are almost never cost effective, surely you can spend those 1k+ minerals and 600 700 gas on something better T.T


I have to disagree with you. Yes, scouts are not cost effective against any other air units or ground anti-air unit, they can be effective when they have no anti air.

With 2-3 scouts (550 - 825 minerals) you can slow them down more than what you put into the scouts by forcing them to get anti-air and killing scvs. Yes, if they build an armory right after there first factory completes they will have goliaths when your scout are made. Worst case scenario is that you did not scout that he was making an armory right after the factory and you make two scouts. If you see he does have goliaths then, don't make any more scouts and work on getting speed zs and arbiters. Then you have two scouts that you can harass with or try setting in a posistion to intercept where dropships will likely come.

The fact is that many terran will have no anti air at this time in the game. My arguement is that with two scouts I can cost them more time in micro and minerals by harassing with these two scouts then what it cost me and it sets me on the tech tree for arbiters.
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6 months ago
#6

sayja

   2
many of you seems to be very sceptical about ANY new strat..
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6 months ago
#7

Izraphel

   7
2008-05-30 21:31:25, sayja wrote:
many of you seems to be very sceptical about ANY new strat..


most of the new strats aren't actually new, they have been tried some time in the last 10 years and abandoned.
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6 months ago
#8

INTrO)PinSTripe
@ OP, So you're saying this 2 scouts will reach terran base faster than terran has ebay up? Lets imagine T goes 1 Fac siege expo for example and gets ebay asaply(before 2nd fac) that's pretty normal. Will scouts still be able to do a cost efficient harass? I can't see that happening vs a Terran who's at least same level as the protoss player doing this strat is.

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6 months ago
#9

KacherMB

   1
2008-05-30 22:09:40, InTrO)Pinstripe wrote:
@ OP, So you're saying this 2 scouts will reach terran base faster than terran has ebay up? Lets imagine T goes 1 Fac siege expo for example and gets ebay asaply(before 2nd fac) that's pretty normal. Will scouts still be able to do a cost efficient harass? I can't see that happening vs a Terran who's at least same level as the protoss player doing this strat is.



So far in the games I have played the terran has an ebay, but no turrets yet. If you force them build build two turrets at his main and exp you cost them 300 minerals and you can kill scvs before they are made. I don't think they have any turrets yet because they are not use to building turrets that early because they would not normally need them until about a minute later when there would even be a possibility of DT. One note, I have been sure to kill the scvs in my base before I build the starports.

2008-05-30 22:09:40, mihkeL wrote:
replays ?


I am out of town for work now (one reason I am posting instead of playing=P), but I will see which ones I saved and post it when I get back to my desktop.

Also, I am not trying to say that this is some sort of super uber build, but I think it has potential to be used occasionally and be effective. Additionally, until about a month ago it had been 4 or so years since I last played, so to say the least I am rusty:) I recently started playing iccup and am D+, but I have not reached my cieling yet because I have not gotten a chance to play enough games. So by no means am I playing top tier players, but you have an idea of the level of competition I am trying this against.

I find it fun and exciting to throw my opponent off-guard and try to force them to adapt to the situation. Lastly, what I have found to be powerful about this build is not the scouts, but the quick arbiters.
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6 months ago
#10

ostojiy

   3
Its not effective at all. If they just turtle till midgame, as most terran do, you are very far behind. If they even see 4 scouts, they just make 2+ turrets and you cant harrass shit. They then get early armoury, and push out with 1-2 goliaths. Maybe as a bm strat, but thats about it >_<
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6 months ago
#11

a.k.a.

   2
scouts easily fuck up terran economy early game if done propperly. and yes i speac from experiance :)

it is possible tho its just to punish your opponent imo
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6 months ago
#12

Lord_of_Chaos

   17
it reminds me of the classic stove, a similar scout opening into DTs etc.. I think if I remember right. It's an old PP. It's not inefficient.. just a little more risky :P

I would like to see a replay of this in action, please also presents what level of opponent's you're playing..
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6 months ago
#13

EM)Blitz(

   1
this strat certainly loses to a 2fac push.
if you get scouted you are generally screwed.
against FD, it could work, but if you build 2 stargates and 2 scouts and then still need to fly to your opponentes base, i can't imagine they don't have a turret. the armory could be quite difficult to build, but this delay is quite neglectable because your expo will come veeeery late and you sure need some gas to build arbiters. --> ealry gas at expo + late exe --> you sure won't have much units which will be cloaked by the arbiters. i don't think it's a viable strat above C- lvl ICCup
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6 months ago
#14

Silverleaves

   2
Even if the Terran don't have turrets yet, he can just build 4 at once by cutting unit production and you won't be able to kill all the scv building the turrets fast enough. He can ever repair the scvs that are buildings if he had good micro.
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6 months ago
#15

Entertaining

   1
This is just the stove done by a noob..
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6 months ago
#16

ishinken

   2
What can I say, if it works for you and you pull it off you go for it!

Most people here just say something ignorant as "but then he would JUST HAVE to....-" like everyone plays like they do and that they know how everyone plays.

This strategy forum is not just meant to figure out UP TO DATE pro strategies that are used in every single match from now on but also to discuss many fun/different strategies that you have found working because they catch your any-day b.net user off-guard because they just normally go by what others say they should build and never know what would happen if something else happends over at the opponents base.
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6 months ago
#17

fym.lpjuunin

   1
2008-05-31 00:32:05, ishinken wrote:
What can I say, if it works for you and you pull it off you go for it!

Most people here just say something ignorant as "but then he would JUST HAVE to....-" like everyone plays like they do and that they know how everyone plays.

This strategy forum is not just meant to figure out UP TO DATE pro strategies that are used in every single match from now on but also to discuss many fun/different strategies that you have found working because they catch your any-day b.net user off-guard because they just normally go by what others say they should build and never know what would happen if something else happends over at the opponents base.


True, we tend to act a bit too much like conservatives, but some of the 'so called "new" strats' people like to pull out tends to be way too situational. Meaning underused units such as queens/scouts/valks are underused for a reason, not because people have anything against those units. If you want to use them, by all means, use'em, just know WHEN to use them, and HOW to use them. I sometimes pull out a Scout or two in very rare ocassions to scout-micro ovvies to make way for a dt drop. Obviously this is an underused strats, because Corsairs are much more faster than scouts, thus making better...'scouts'...

I'm not saying none of us uses these fishy strats, in fact, we don't always go the standard build. There are instances where we cheese rush, totally different BO's, etc. But of course, these aren't stuff you do because you feel like it, you use them when you scout out the enemy leaving a big hole in their defences, whether it be a risky FE, or poor worker defense. The reason we 'critisize' these strats is because like I said, they are WAY too situational, so if your enemy scouts you doing it, or it just doesn't go the way you wanted it to, you're going to wish you just went the standard build...

And to the OP, I like your PvT Scout strat, unlike people who goes 'z0mg, leikk, y dosnt anyone use queens, i usethem all teh tmei, lolololol' you explained your strat well. But there are way too much flaws and loopholes in there...=/ As in, not everything you described the Terran would 'probably' do, he will probably NOT do...=/ Remember, thinking it in your head is easy; actually executing it effectively is the hard part. ;D
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6 months ago
#18

Lim.Yo.Hwan

   1
some of you guys think anything out of the ordinary is retarted and would never work against a good player. didnt bisu do this versus hwasin?!
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6 months ago
#19

epidiOn

   12
Once a Korean pro does this strategy people will think it's the best thing since toilet paper.

I think it's great and creative. I'd never get more than three scouts though, so I'd probably only make one Stargate and send them once the third finished. If you make one Stargate you can probably get your Citadel faster or get a Robotics instead. Just to be on the safe side I'd probably get a Robotics, make a Shuttle and two Observers, load up four Zealots and go with ranged Dragoons/Scouts/Shuttle. It lets you be offensive early and do it without Zealot leg upgrade. Depending on how much stalling the Scouts did, the timing might be too late though, since it would be a couple minutes later than your normal bulldog.
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6 months ago
#20

smidaemon

   2
nope i have not seen it done before, and for good reason
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