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Forums \ Strategic forum \ Boxer vs Garimto 5 years ago
1 year ago

jas0n
Boxer vs Garimto 5 years ago (1549 reads, 15 replies)
So I'm debating with a friend over a game we watched on youtube between Boxer and Garimto. The video can be found here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeQRG-DMJXA&mode=related&search=

Well, after much debate between my friend and I, we've come to a bit of a stalemate, as neither of us are willing to relent on our opinions. I think the game wasn't very good, as both players made many mistakes, ie the SCV getting through into the protoss base and Boxer losing his SCVs to the reaver. My friend, however, thinks otherwise and believes it to be quite a good game, and that the mistakes that were made are understandable.

Here are a few key points in our argument

On my side

The SCV got through the ramp, the dragoon did not block it

As the shuttle with the reaver left the terran base, it was shot down by the same turret that was shooting it while it entered the terran base

All visible SCVs except one was lost to the reaver

Protoss expanded instead of predicting the rush and defending against it

Protoss did a poor job using his probes to flank the marines

Protoss should not have flanked, but instead, used the probes to make a barrier and defend the dragoons rather than attack the marines (only 2 marines were killed by the probes)

On my friend's side

The death of Boxer's SCVs was due to Boxer's disregard for his base, and his choice to use marines and medics against protoss was all planned

The way Garimto attacked the marines with his probes was a good try

Although mistakes were made, they are understandable

The reaver would have never made it back in time to the base even if it wasn't shot down (I disagree with this because 30 seconds passed from the time the reaver was shot down to the time the marines killed the probes on the ramp)


So the basic argument is this.

I believe Boxer and Garimto made many more mistakes compared to progamers today. I don't know much about Garimto, but Boxer wouldn't have made nearly as many mistakes during his days before joining the air force than he did in this match. And overall, it wasn't a very good game, despite the legendary players.

And my friend's argument is this.

This was just as good as any progame played today, albeit there were some mistakes, but the mistakes are quite common. Both players played adequately and overall, it was a good game.


So what do you think? Was this a good game compared to progames today? Thanks for your opinion and time.
Quote  
 

1 year ago
#1

ubuntu

   2
Garmito is my favorite toss player and boxer is my favorite Terran player. I think both are geniuses. I understand mistakes are made under the stress of a match between two people who know that the other is their greatest challenge. Your friend is right. I hope you flame me for respecting such skilled players and disagreeing with you because then it proves how right i am.
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1 year ago
#2

jas0n

   1
Lol, I'm not going to flame you, but you didn't really answer the question to our argument. We're not arguing about whether Boxer and Garmito are good players, we're arguing about whether that one game was good, compared to today's progame standards.
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1 year ago
#3

ubuntu

   2
Well thank you for not simply flaming which is the norm nowadays. All I am saying is that less was known about what a player and race was capable of back then and how to counter was based on a players ability to think on their toes. Todays players have the leisure of knowing what to expect and how to counter it better. So I would think the old progamers are indeed better players.
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1 year ago
#4

PsychoBaBas

 (StarCraft Editor (Trial))   9
I like how Garimto doesnt bother scouting or anything. Just stays in his base.

Also, wtf is all that chatting? Hahaha no AC or anything! Bad game in my opinion.
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1 year ago
#5

ateddybear

   2
today's progamers have developed such good mechanics/knowledge compared to 5 years ago, therefore todays progamers are better.
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1 year ago
#6

xyberkids

   6
I know that sometimes players let the scv to fake BO, but I don't think this was the case. You know the worst part was when garimto flies into the turrets, I think he just didn't want to try microing his shuttle + reaver against boxer's marines XD.

This didn't seem to be a very professional game, but it still was fun to watch. I think current progamers are at a higher level than that game we watched.
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1 year ago
#7

placha

   1
remember that it was 5 years ago... many many many things has changed from that time... even today, i wish i could play even one such a good game in my life - i'll have to practise many months to represent such skill :p
ofcourse, nowadays gosus would kill'em both today, but nowadays gosus would never kill'em both 5 years ago :>
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1 year ago
#8

osser

   3
Sorry, but i think every C icc terran nowadays would beat garimto in that game with early push, he didn't make any scouting at all, how he could stand it with just 3 goons i have really no idea...

I don't think losing scvs was im important, at that time boxer probably knew he would finish the game with just one attack...
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1 year ago
#9

obb

   4
Horrible micro by garimto, he could possibly fend of marine attack with one way, if selecting all probes into 3 groups and timing theiy mineral escape to expantion as marines enter choke while 3 goons attack MAYBE he could kill enough marine to win. Garimto played noobish this game imho. Very strange build order also, why upgrade goon range so early if he is making exp + fast reaver shuttle... would make sense to put that money into more goons vs early rush or maybe even zealots to accompany the reaver instead of one goon.
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1 year ago
#10

lord-generic

   1
isn't this kinda obvious? 5 more years of experience has to conclude in something
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1 year ago
#11

Delta9

   2
Game is not so good and its full of mistakes because its very old...
Easyly, 5 years ago players didnt be so good like today... this electronic sport evolved from this time. In this old times there were different style of playing and players was focusing on different things then today... This game was very good in the time when was played... now it forces us to liken to present style of playing... today this game is bad... but it was very very good 5 years ago, trust me...
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1 year ago
#12

Andaroo

   2
The strategies used 5 years ago were simply different from the ones used today. People mostly FE and do heavy eco. builds while before it was more common to rush or do micro builds. The reason we FE instead of 4pool now is because we know that MOST of the time the opponent will also FE making it safe for us to expand as well, but if it was normal for people to do rushes then I doubt you would see something like a 1rax or 1fac CC a viable build. Back then people preferred to counter when they won a battle, now it is better to simply expand. I think one of the REALLY big differences is the maps that people played on, most of them back then didn't have a natural so macro builds were almost impossible to do. Also, I think the strategies that were useful in the original SC were carried on when BW came out, as well as the fact that pro gamers have a better understanding of the game since they had all these years to learn from their mistakes. In a couple years if BW is still popular the style would probably change again, and the games now would seem bad in comparison.
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1 year ago
#13

Musli

   7
www.Azeroth.ru

VODS from Pro Finals in 2000 and 2001.
HOT, Garimto, ChoJJa, YellOw, NaDa, Junwi, XellOs, Grrr, Boxer at their best.
Who hasnt watched it yet - I recommend to take a look back in the past and see how it looked like 6 and 7 years ago =)
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1 year ago
#14

SCTV

   4
Lol, I'm not going to flame you, but you didn't really answer the question to our argument. We're not arguing about whether Boxer and Garmito are good players, we're arguing about whether that one game was good, compared to today's progame standards.


so does pro gaming develop to the worse over the years?

what a question.....
my answere:
FPvod Q-games 2000 - PvZ - Garimto vs ssamjang - Lost Temple

about 400+ players on ICC have a better toss now then Garimto had at his time.
The gaming quality of most armatures nowadays is far higher then most pro gamers of 2000, because we have been feeding and have learned of their knowledge and mistakes. (replays & Vods)

Freechal (brisk) OSL Finals 2000 Garimto vs Skelton
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1 year ago
#15

inactiveBlackSheep

   3
#6 rofl

#11
yes and boxer was very big idiot 5 yers ago...

#11 in not-interesting theory
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