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ret: Micro is almost non-existent in StarCraft 2
Posted by Patrik "Raistlin" Hellstrand 2 years ago
Jos "ret" de Kroon has posted his first blog on his new team LowLandLions' website. Ret is the second highest ranked foreigner in the StarCraft scene.His blog gives us a rundown of what he thinks about the current StarCraft 2 beta. He is irritated with the Terrans especially.
- It really felt like Terran was much harder to play than the other 2 races before the first two patches, and being a Random player it was frustrating losing over and over while playing Terran, says ret.
He also states that micromanagement in StarCraft 2 is almost non-existent compared to its predecessor StarCraft: Brood War.- Micro was always an element in which you could separate yourself from your opponent and take the lead in a game. I feel it wasn't really there in SC2. It almost feels like you just build up an army, try to scout and counter your enemy's units, and then just attack and hope for the best, says ret.
Then, he expresses how he misses the map control element from Brood War.
- You constantly have mind games and small battles going on from the start of the game. But maybe this is just because we haven't learned enough about the game yet.
He does point out, however, that a lot of the balance issues have been fixed with the two newly implemented patches.- Terran was made a lot stronger and all the races seem pretty, even with the limited information we have on how to play exactly. In the next few weeks, we will see how the balance holds up, and whether or not people are able to find cute tricks or strategies still hidden in the game to create challenging gameplay and tense/exciting games of SC2.
Make sure to catch ret's livestreaming hours available at Livestream.com.
| Links |
| LowLandLions.com - Full blog entry |
| Comments \ Paging |
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| expansions have small changes and additions, not a total makeover and removal of alot of things, wait i cant think of any expansions that REMOVE thigns... not to mention make a game completely different dimension... |
| Ofcouse micro is nonexisting for him. It's because he's a scbw player. Look how mondragon got outmicroed in zotac vs a wc3 player. Nothing more to add. |
| Reavers have been removed ;'( Miss them ... And yep i agree about the storms, was better on BW. And stop saying crap about Mondragon, his micro is very good, dont judge too fast a player when you dont know how many games he plays on this game, just wait a few times he will be top. |
| At the moment Blizzard is doing a good job with patching the beta. I think they will now focus on making the beta secure again..since there are hacked Clients out... From my point of view the best part of the game called "Starcraft 2" is the new Battle.net...it really looks nice so far and i cant wait for the announced features. Starcraft 2 itself is nice...but nothing more. :-) |
| #34 what are u trying to say here? |
| the sound of zerg is just soooo bad imo.. dont sound anything like a zerg |
| I don't get what most old BW players talk about? How can a game get easier? It depends on your enemy, the game itself can't be easier or harder... you're not playing AI. (which plays better or worse) They removed WORK you had to do while playing, so the game needs less base management which is for some players a big part of starcraft. It's a new game, so that base management isn't so important anymore. The consequence should be that something else is more important now, what it is, I don't know because I didn't play the BETA. Fact is, that in this "free time" you can do other stuff you weren't able to in Sc: Bw (not even with extreme multitasking) So the game isn't easier or less micro involved... I think it's not very intelligent to say something like this. In fact, the chess example is very bad if you talk about hard or easy game. Chess is easy like the haters would say, no it's not easy, it has a simple gameplay, but the difficulty depends on your enemy. |
| Dude, read what I did say. The very top players from div1 when I played against them, said that after they had played SC2 for some days, SC1 is just much harder. Base management and moving workers to minerals played key-role in SC1, showing your multi-task ability, u had to do several things at one time and probably because u were not able to handle this, u're talking this is a good change. And this is why we say SC2 is noob-friendly. U talking something about 'different stuffs' but never explain what sort of these stuffs u mean. I made a compare to chess because u don't need apm there so it's extremum of how SC1 turned into SC2. The fact is, in SC2 u don't need big apm to handle all the things, and this is why most of users say its a good game (because they feel they are good) |
| #55 what are you trying to say here ? |
| WTF ppl who haven't tried the beta shouldn't post here. and if ret says something doesn't autmatically mean he is right. ffs |
| #58 so SC2 is more hard for pros? i get what u mean, and why u say BW was more hard, but i think SC2 will have its own characteristic to seperate skill. look at wc3, for me looks much easier than BW, too. but even in wc3, noobs never bash pros btw in chess u got a clock :P |
| by making automining and all mechanics easier is just gonna give potential to make the game more balanced as a terran in the sc1 scene i used to drop games against mediocre toss users in real games and sometimes beat the very top toss users, why? because toss was easy as heck to macro and u didnt need to be active to come back and own up all, look at jf or nony in tsl. a terran could never go inactive and come back and win something like that or just play without having a few warmup games... it was just imbalanced. the game itself maybe wasnt so imbalanced, but the fact that playing some races was harder than the others in terms of apm made it imbalanced unless ur a progamer and play 10 hours a day sc2 mechanics has more positive things about them than negative take a game like poker, its so damn simple. but the fact that its so simple for both players u have to be absolute best at the simple stuff playing a standard game in sc2 is gonna be alot easier for all of us on the keyboards and in progaming they will take it for granted that everyone keep the money low, whats gonna be hard is to push the micro to the very limit and make strategy and tactics and build orders, not how fast u can split ur workers and click make marine in 8 different raxes sure u could be really impressed and proud as a gamer when u manage to see flash for example do this so damn well, but by having such lousy mechanics held them back from really optimizing new bos or perfect micro. the game doesnt have to be hard to make it enjoyable to watch, watching sc1 was not so fun for non-involved players because they didnt realize how hard it was to just macro but guy gamer or spectator will see how cool micro wars r and this is why i think sc2 has potential to be bigger than sc2 and wc3 was just like enivid and me was laffing at dreamhack how the newb-crowd started applauding when enivid targeted vultures while backing off at the same time (which any c- gamer can do) and didnt realize what was really impressive that the gamers get impressed by for example micro maybe wont be so apparent in the beta stages, cause ppl r busy figuring out what units do and so. and mostly losing cause of the hard counters. but as soon as ppl can do this easily and play a normal game i think they will start learn how to optimize a micro war too, just take muta stack for example. took a while to figure that out in sc1 :p and just because ret says that micro doesnt exist after playing at a few days doesnt mean anything more than any others opinion, hes great at sc1 but sc2 is a new game... |
| micro definitely exists in sc2. but idk if macro really does as much *cough* automining *cough* |
| The huge deal with Terran is that going bio is extremely weak against protoss. But going metal is weak as well, because there is no unit anti zeze like the vulture, you don't have mines!!! which means that you can't fast expand properly, protoss can double gate zeze and simply destroy you in a second, it is impossible to micro in a decent way because zeze can charge like a fuckin warrior at wow and to finish your units will make funny move that you didn't even ask for, the entrance on b2 is too big and the supply is way too small so your wall is inefficient. So far Protoss is by far the easiest ubber race to play. So it's kind of funny when i hear "seems to be balanced" it's not at all balanced. |
| the zeal sprint and the stalker blink can be buggy as hell...like get themselves stuck on cliffs for no apparent reason...the colossus...FML...wtf am i gonna do with it seriously...either make it smarter or delete it from the game...it's just this retarded laser tower that targets wtf ever it wants to... carrier is amazing...immortals feel a bit meatier but still feels like goons...dts are bit slow for my liking...storms...wtf...can't kill shit... and seriously...MUTAS are overpowered...as of now...they just 1 shot everything... |
| Micro in SC 1 , made people be Dodgers, now you don't need this, use ur brain and win, it should be better, haven't triend yet |
| It is the same thing that to compare the warcraft 2 with the warcraft 3 Also they are orcos and humans and everything else but they are 2 DIFFERENT GAMES |
| totally SLOW, no micro, easy macro, auto mine, infinite select, for example, u can add 200/200 on 1 ctrl. The cc, nexus and that queen fucked up the game with those habilities, a bigger scv comming from space? roflmao, gold minerals? -_-... a lot of MAGIC on the beguining of the game in my point of view, this game is more like a W4 than SC2 honestly... i dont even have beta key but just judging by replays, im pretty sure with all those automatic stuff, this game will die really fast even faster than W3 if blizzard dont change this game entirely, the truth is this game is for no skilled players, so all those noobs from W3 can play this game, im sure its what blizzard had in mind, and btw, it looks boring too, im totally dissapointed. They should remember that this is SC2 not W4, the game should be fast and the gameplay should be at least 80% similar. |
| #68 - I hate to say it, because I really like this game, but a lot of what you are saying is true. It's just way to easy to get a huge army/economy in this game. I don't see the lack of micro changing with additional patches. I think the game to be comparable to the feel of Starcraft/Broodwar is a complete ground-up redo. The only thing is that this isn't Starcraft / Broodwar. It's a completely different game. I'm not sure if RTS noobs can come in and just rape everyone because there is auto-mine, but I'm leaning towards the impression that they can't. Compare the differences of W2 and W3. COMPLETELY different. This is the same stuff man. It's a new game and I believe it has the potential to be a great one. Even after beta the game is still going to be imba and completely new. They patched SC so many times before it even started to be somewhat balanced. It's new - Get over it - If you don't like it play SC. |
| #68 it's not slow, actually quite pacey game. there is still micro required. macro is probably a bit easier. the chrono boost, queen and mule are good ideas - require APM and timings - better players will have the edge. Yeah right put your 100 zerglings into 1 CTRL. i will own you with my 15 hellions and MICRO. what else do you need to know. it's a new game. 2 weeks into BETA!! don't get me wrong i think changes are necessary (like more space between units so they don't clump, or i think the hard counters are too "hard") and i kinda miss the positional play from BW - but we have to wait, the game needs to evolve. it didn't take BW overnight to evolve. heck not even a few years. but the game has got a lot of POTENTIAL. |
| #70 Holy words my friend. |
| #70 So true, but people need to point out to the flaws of sc2. As long as everyone keeps saying "It's perfect" or "It feels way better and faster than sc:bw", this game is not going to get balanced. I am not saying people should bash the game for no reason, but completely praising the game, and not pointing out to any of the flaws is not going to do any good either. And truth be told, from all those blogs, "reviews" of the beta and such, I mostly only see praises with only some player here and there pointing out to some things that need to be checked. |
| I tried jumping a mineral with a scv stack and couldnt xD then deleted the game !!! :D. I dont know why, but this game remembers me of warcraft 3, I disliked it since the first try |
| Time will prove the value of the game. As far as i am concerned, where is my beta key... |
| I'm playing diferent game? I get crushed many times pvz becose i didnt micro properly vs storms I get crushed many times tvp becose i didnt focus tank stalkers marines inmortal I get crushed many times against colosus or banelings becose i didnt split my trops. I win games by hit and run marauder roaches and stalkers I win games by using properly force fields i win games by spliting my army etc etc The only thing that i will agree here is that sience we can manage our base whit less apm and we didnt use yet all the sc2 potential we dont have the same sense that we had in bw. Other thing is the sound, sience is smother than bw,didnt give the same feeling that we have in bw But as far as i c the micro is ok |
| sc2 is a mistake a bit :( |
| I have sc2 beta and Maybe there's not more micro in SC2 than SC1 but micro is one of the biggest aspects of SC2 IMO... I micro alot in SC2... I think micro is one of the most important aspects of SC2 since macroing is very easy.. T_T |
| Ten years from now, we can look back and see how much nerdrage there was into something that's two weeks into its testing stage. So much pressure on Blizzard, gawd. We should all mail a bottle of beer to blizzard headquarter with the card saying 'Hey, don't mess up.' |
| It's impossible to say anything about micro when most players are still trying to figure out strategies. The best player I know of, CowGoMoo, who is on top of a ladder with Idra and David Kim, with a ridiculous record of like 100 wins and 10 losses, has played Terran from the start, so I would not say they were underpowered at all, people are just figuring out how to play with them. Most people playing SC still have been doing so for years so OBVIOUSLY micro is going to be what separates most high level players. I've seen games between top SC2 gamers and while there is definitely less apm needed to play SC2 due to a superior user interface, there's still a shit load of micro going on with unit abilities, anti clumping, kiting, etc. Players will begin to realize exactly how to micro Colossus to get the most out of their beam cannon, and Terran players will have to realize that due to SC2's great pathing AI, their marines clump together a shit load, but with some ridiculous micro you can more easily take down a Colossus. To me this is reminiscent of Boxer's Marine micro around Lurkers. I will say that I miss Lurkers for sure, they make Zerg so much more interesting in terms of micro. Zerg feels a little lackluster with the Roach. I guess I'm hoping Infestors make it into a matchup or two. |
| I think right now, the amount of skill recquired to win a game of SC2 is lower than SC, but SC has had 10 fucking years of meta game development going on by players. It has basically plateaued now as well. SC2 is a couple weeks young for fucks sake. Do you think ANYONE was saying anything like this about Starcraft Brood Wars when it was 2 weeks into it's beta. NOOOOOoooo. When players actually know the game, are familiar with the units, the maps, micro techniques, timing, etc. then you can make this argument. I might check back on this thread in lets say, 5 years. Get real. |
| is it so hard to make a 2nd expansion compatible with bw? we don't need anything more than just 2 units per racec to play another 20 years. xD |
| how the hell can you think about something bad putting the "auto-mine" thing, im sry for the news but thats not skill, its just something stupid, you only need to be a nerd robot or a bot in sc it seems... like this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa0vSILZ5xM so sc nerds plz go tetris!!! the game have perfect balance and need a lot of skill!!!! extra extra new tetris 2!! now the pieces have different color!! you want to buy it!! |
| Bonyth, despite some of the things you say might be true, your statement about chess being a lame game makes you noncredible and me mad (comparing high level sc:bw-play to beginner-chess :F - probably you don't have much knowledge of the game nor did you ever compete in it). Also your reasoning why people seem to like sc2 ("Im not good in sc:bw at all, so I'll rather play the easier sc2") might apply to some people, but obviously not to the majority. Some people just like to play Starcraft - not to become a professional - but to have fun. I'm also still skeptical of some things - don't like the graphics that much, miss some great units (Vultures etc.), but all in all I'm curious about how sc2 still develops (probably won't play it much tho). |
| In BW there are many little things that make game so good. For my big part of skill is to remember about new scv and move them to minerals, build units in all buldings not by using one hotkey, and make good 12 units squads. And this "micro" in my opinion its horrible ... ability to target light or armored unit ... |
| well said . |
| When the beta finishes and the game is released . |
| It will for sure, be crap! |
| http://art2stuff.blogspot.com/search/label/Starcraft join it! all aboaut starcraft FPVOD , Interviews |
| i'll just stick to sc1 till i have noone to play with. |
| I didn't say chess is a lame game. I did say that chess is low 'apm' required game. Makes the difference. About people arguing with time needed for SC1 beta to get real StarCraft. At the begining, SC was made with totally different idea, all the action had place in space but then they saw it sux and changed it into SC which we play now. SC2 won't change much and all what will change will be probably just unit behaviour/stats. SC2 final version to beta basically won't change if we compare to how much SC1 beta changed to make the final version. I hope SC2 will die because Kespa won't let the game come into Korea so u will have much less opponents to play against on B.net II T_T |
#58 , #68 true , true  |
| #77, no |
| #68 you obviously haven't played the game yourself. Or you played against a bunch of WoW newbs who haven't even played any RTS game in their lifes. I'm not saying that SC2 is perfect, but it's not "easy". It's way faster than BW in terms of how fast can you tech and how much army you can build from 1 base. SC2 won't be a clone of SC1 with better graphics, that much was clear 3 years ago. Blizzard will NOT intentionally ignore the new age technology UI options just to make game harder. I agree that mechanical skill in SC *is* skill, but it's skill which you gain by playing a lot, not by being smarter. It's called muscle memory.You play so much that you don't need to think that you need to get back to your base and send workers to the minerals or macro from your 10 hatcheries anymore. I know that SC became what it is because of this old and imperfect UI and unit AI. But ppl really need to realise that BW and SC2 will co-exist.SC2 wasn't meant to be a replacement. The games are just too different. CS:Source was meant to be a replacement for CS, but it pretty much failed. I doubt there can ever be a better RTS than SC:BW, but saying that SC2 will suck is plain out ignorant. |
| #55 I was trying to say that DaZe >>>>>>>>>>>>> HayprO even in SC2 without having played it. And in Broodwar too, of course. Hell, I honestly do even think that DaZe > HayprO in chess! |
#12 : ((( this is sad ...  |
| if you want micro play WC3 plain and simple. |
| #96 That's because there is no micro in sc:bw? f*** sake... |
| 12hidras < 5 phoenix and 5 stalkers, i c that today, micro is truly hardcore if u want in some situations |
| Say what you wish, but the ability to queue basically everything in this game is so cool, that nothing beats it. Sure, it less micro/macro-complicated then the prequel, but in most cases - imho - Blizzard just made the tedious things easier to manipulate. The ability to group buildings and issue orders that will be equally divided among buildings is great. Do you really think that double clicking the shourtcut, just to get to one of the gates, and then clicking on all buildings just to queue a few units is good? It was horrible. Now it's easier. The less time you spend on tedious things like queuing units, the more time you have to micro them, that's my opinion. I think there is still a lot of macro & micro involved (just look at the units' abilities - example: "Blink"). That said, SC2 seems much more WoW-like (i.e., everyone invited), then SC1. We will probably have to wait and see how the game progresses before we make the final verdict. First thing I would like Blizz to change is the durability of units/buildings. As it is now, a group of low level units can mow down enemies army & base in mere seconds. This way you don't even have time to micro them properly - just produce, produce, produce, attack. |
| Its a game for players .. not gamers .. seeing another WC3 in the making :D GLHF .. |
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