Dota2Replays Brawl: Behind the controversy
Posted by Bruno "GG-AWRNSS" Justo 4 months ago

After the Dota2Replays Brawl admin's verdict, GosuGamers decided to interview the teams involved to clarify the situation from their perspectives. We highly recommend everyone who wants to voice their opinion to watch the VOD (click) of the first qualifier's final and read this article to have an informed opinion.
The first qualifier of the Dota2Replays Brawl will stick in our memories for some time. A team that no one knew about (Fire) defeated four top teams in a row using unorthodox strategies to reach the final. This alone would have convinced us at GosuGamers to interview them, but this article is, sadly, not about their rise in the scene, but about their (ab)use of a bug in the final. Puck seemed to be able to cast Phase Shift even when he was disabled by Chronosphere.
Their opponents, Natural 9 realized this in the first thirty minutes and called it out. However, the referees didn't do anything about it whatsoever at the time, and the game went on. As it progressed, we were able to see Puck continuing to use Phase Shift in situations that were not possible in the original DotA. Towards the end of the match, a game-changing team fight took place in The Radiant's forest, from which Fire emerged victorious with thanks to the Phase Shift bug. They went on to take down three barracks and gain a undeniable advantage.
Under these circumstances, N9 decided to pause the game and talk to the match referees of about the Phase Shift bug. After a few moments, the call on all chat was that Puck was no longer to use autocast (which was causing the bug to occur, allowing the hero to Phase Shift while disabled) on the skill, or the team would be disqualified. N9 decided to leave the game a few seconds after.
Yesterday, GameReplays released a statement to announce that they had modified their tournament rules, and that N9 were awarded the win and progressed from the qualifier, whilst Fire would receive top seeding in the second qualifiers. You can find the complete statement here.
That's where the facts end. The forums were filled with people rooting for one or the other. The IRC channels were flooded. NADota was more active yesterday than it has been all week. So it's safe to say that this drama is widely spread across the DotA scene and everyone has his own opinion.
What makes the situation difficult is that any administrators decision is bound to a lot of personal interpretation. How big was the bug's impact? Did it matter if they knew about it? Why aren't they disqualified if they abused a bug? Can the judges contradict our previous decision to let them play on?
These are just a few of the infinite questions that everyone must ask themselves to have a proper perspective of how to handle this situation. The answers will involve a lot personal opinions. That's why I decided to interview all three of the parties involved to clarify their thinking, but since GameReplays didn't want to give an interview, we will have to satisfy ourselves with the team's perspectives.
I sat down with ixmike88 from Fire and xMusiCa from N9. Find out what they have to say below. First up is ixmike88.
There is a lot of suspicion surrounding your team's intention or knowledge by using this bug. Did any of your team-mates (specifically TC, who controlled Puck) know about it beforehand?
ixmike88: TC assumed that the functionality of Phase Shift with Chronosphere was working as intended due to a post by IceFrog confirming that this issue was addressed. He did not know about the other bugs such as dodging spells while shackled, but he also has no control over autocast.How much did Puck's bug affect the game in your opinion?
ixmike88: It saved Puck from ganks on at least two occasions but I don't think that, had Phase Shift been working properly, the game would have resulted differently.GDT.Taku gave joinDOTA a statement in which he claims that your team cheated in a previous SECS match by pooling tangos. Is that true? What can you say about that?
ixmike88: I was pooling tangos to another support hero because he bought two support items to my one, however I misclicked and gave the tangos to our Doom. He already had tangos on him causing his tangos and my own to stack, he then sold them for the full price of 180 gold, putting him at 693 gold. He then bought one tango and gave it to the support hero that I intended on giving it to, putting him back at 603 gold. There was no cheating or exploitation here.What was team Fire's objective during their discussions with DRB's admins?
ixmike88: We assumed that the ruling that they made in game (that it must be played on) was the final one. Later on we were called in to discuss the situation with both the DRB admins and N9; the possibility of a remake was never officially proposed. We were/are willing to play any form of rematch.You guys defeated Mousesports, WesternWolves and eSahara by using the same strategy (featuring Chen, Omniknight, Shadow Shaman and Skeleton King). Was the surprise a big factor of Fire's success?
ixmike88: It's a strategy that we have practised for a very long time and is very hard to deal with, especially when the opposing team is unfamiliar with our style or picks.And now everyone knows about it. However, you guys used a different strategy when you faced N9, picking Puck and Broodmother. They were heroes that you hadn't previously used in the entire tournament. Why was that?
ixmike88: Broodmother is a very strong hero in general and one of our go-to heroes when it is available. We only chose to use it when N9 banned Chen and first picked Rhasta. Puck was a hero that we rarely used, however we felt it was better than the alternatives for that situation.DRB's official verdict is to award N9 the qualifier and give you a first seed in the next qualifier. What are your feelings about it? Will you guys keep playing the tournament?
ixmike88: I don't agree with the decision but I understand how it can be made in a vacuum. I feel that it is an unfair ruling because at no point during the game did we receive any official warning, and while this may be considered bug abuse to the DotaReplay staff, it's not as clear cut as that; this is not comparable to something like blocking a creep wave with fissure or sprout. No other tournament (including The International) has ever ruled the usage of autocast on Phase Shift as abusive, therefore we did not either. If we received any ruling from the referee at any point in the game then we absolutely would have stopped using it. We have not decided if we will continue to play in the tournament.And now for xMusiCa's perspective:
MusiCa, one of Fire's strongest arguments is that N9 waited until they were at a huge disadvantage (four barracks down) to pause the game and do something about the bug. Why did N9 wait so long, when we could see that after a failed gank on top, you said on all chat that Puck was abusing a bug?
xMusiCa: It was not up to us to make a decision on that matter, we did voice out in regards to the bug. Weren't the admins curious about what was happening at the given time, where they could have questioned us? Why did we have to pause to actually get an admin to recognize that there is some sort of bug/exploit going on?What was N9's objective during their discussions with DRB's admins? Did your team want a rematch, a best-of-three final, or a disqualification?
xMusiCa: Electronic gaming is the fastest growing leisure sports in this current era. Surely its future and influence is beyond even the world's most popular game - Soccer. DotA has finally gained recognition and awareness after five years of promotion and the perseverance of sponsors, gamers and supporters. And kudos and thanks to the developers of this wonderful game; the development of Dota 2 has enabled the game to be a fully fledged, standalone title, with the support of Valve.This is a big step for all DotA players, professional or amateur. It has pushed DotA to the top of world of online gaming, alongside other popular games such as LoL, Counterstrike, and StarCraft 2.
As professional gamers, it is our duty and obligation to ensure that rules are abided by, and a clean game is played. Proper governance and policing should be enforced to ensure the healthy growth of the game. With that as a backdrop we firmly believe that all cheating or bug exploits must be severely and instantly dealt with. To us it did not matter whether or not we got the win; what we wanted was the rules to be enforced in regards to the Puck exploit, and for the community to see that this isn't allowed. Just for example, if a competitor is found with steroids in his system, it does not matter if he did it intentionally or not, the fact remains that he was cheating and he was exploiting it, and he would definitely be disqualified or severely dealt with for doing so.
And yes it, would be a great example of sportsmanship on our part if we were to just go with the remake. But that would also mean that the tournament admins are allowing such things to just slip by them without any action being taken.
Team Fire, the commentators and admins of the game, claim not to have realized or had any knowledge of the bug during the game. In such a grey area, where rules are incomplete and not followed while the referees gives the players "green light" to keep playing, do you think that the staff made the right decision?
xMusiCa: The fact remains that the ultimate factor is whether or not Team Fire were aware of the bug when they were using it, and whether or not they were exploiting it. In eSports, bug exploits are the highest form of cheating. In the original DotA, rules clearly stated that any bug exploits would not be tolerated. In Dota 2 it is the same.Who are we to judge to what rules and what not to apply? It is not up to us tell the admins what bugs are there and what are not. The rules prior to this game clearly stated that all cheating or bug exploits would lead to a disqualification and ban from the entire season.
And teams of our caliber should recognise the bug when its shown. We're here to fix it; not abuse it within The Dota 2 Community.
That's their interpretations of the issue. After hearing both sides and watching the VOD, what do you think about it? Leave us your comments.
| Links |
| GameReplays - Tournament's official statement |
| GameReplays - Final's VOD |
| Comments \ Paging |
1, 2, 3
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| interesting article, its nice to see how the perspectives of two different teams stack up against each other. |
| I'm 100% with ixmike on this one. Since the "abuse" was pointed out during the game, and the admins/refs did not declare it as abuse until the end of the game, there is no justification whatsoever to hand a victory to N9. I understand that it is considered bug abuse, and the rules state that abuse is rewarded with disqualification. However, I also think dota is far too complex of a game to ever expect a single player to know every single instance in which any given spell should work in. Some bugs are obvious. However, the vast variety of spells in dota offers a plethora of different things one must memorize. How is one to know that phase is not intended to work during certain situations? Sure, it makes sense that it would not work sometimes, but is it up to the player to know when the programming has failed? I don't believe that. I think anything outside of the most obvious and horrible of glitches and bugs should be legal until individually banned by the admins and/or the game creators. It is a completely unfair thing to ask that players be responsible for the flaws in the game. Once the puck bug was discovered, the referees should have got off their chairs and made the ruling that it was not ok. At that time, Fire would have known it was not proper use of Puck, and would then know to no longer use it. Furthermore, I think it is insane to hold a tournament during beta in which all sorts of bugs never seen before could occur, and then to place the responsibility for finding and ruling those situations as abusive on the players. Particularly when there is money involved. It should be very well understood by the admins that this game still has bugs, and thus those bugs should be addressed BY THE STAFF, not the players. It is the staff's job to run this tournament and to lay out the rules in an explicit manner, and to allow some bending space, since this game is not perfected yet. In DotA1, most issues were discovered, detailed, and documented so that every player could read a list of rules and know what specific things were not allowed. That is not the case yet in DotA 2, and that needs to be understood by those in charge of the ruling. A replay would most assuredly have been fair, since the multiple instances of Puck being able to phase when he should not have been able to may have contributed to Fire's win (though it was not necessarily the reason they won). It is more than fair to ask for a replay based on that info. But to completely hand the game over? No way. |
| lol, completely avoids the question of 'would you and your team be willing to remake and play it over again' because obviously we know the answer to that. musica tldr'd us |
| MusiCa's response to the first question is sooo retarded. He pretty much says "Yeah, well, we thought we had a chance, and since admins didn't say anything, we gave it out best. When we realized we had no chance, we decided to pause and try the last resort for a win." I am a magic player, only casual, but magic-player none-the-less, and if the players notice anything suspecious, it is actually their DUTY to report it - otherwise the one not doing the faulty thing, is getting a warning, simply because four eyes is better at recognizing something suspecious, compared to two eyes. N9 going "Blah, we didn't pause as it isn't our tournament, so we had nothing to do with anything", they pretty much says "it's not in our hands, thus shouldn't we react to it", and since the admins did nothing, N9 should have accepted that the admins didn't respond to the (proposely) bug-abuse, N9 should have reacted at the FIRST situation, where they think the bug-abuse was done. Don't wait the entire game, and try to get a admin-ruled win, after the game has been lost. So sad done by N9, completly unprofessional by them (as MusiCa talked about professionalism...), and suspectiong that Fire abused on purpose is just dumb: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=8432&highlight=phase |
| just want to point out musica avoided almost every question by talking about the growth of esports as if thats relevant in this situation thoughts. |
| #6 scared of losing face, losing to an "unknown" team (even though the players was better at DotA than N9 was....) |
| nice post #3. Agree with everything. N9 are desperate for money and wins so much they go for this. Pretty sad. The admins of the brawl are really incompetent , just a fail tourney. |
| Meeaaah n9 lost. |
| I seriously doubt that Fire picked Puck to use a bug ! why would they do such a thing ? Imagine your friend coming to you : " hey I found this new bug , go use it on the finals ? come on , no one will ever know " and xMusica answers are totally irrelevant , there are like 50 games going on each day ... a rematch couldn't hurt . |
| musica should go into politics with answers like that |
| He can't be one, as this bullshit isn't working on anybody and shows him as a pussy dodger. |
| #3, the underlying "spirit of the game" is to finish the game; and then raise any disputes. This is quite clearly and consistently stated in rulesets like ESWC, WCG, IEM in the form of "if you think the opposition is cheating, finish the game and then raise the dispute - don't just quit or start raging". N9 paused the game, asked for instant admin intervention (which they did not get) and then finished the game before lodging an official complaint. The fact that N9 only brought the issue up quite late, or in fact at any stage in the game is a moot point - they had every right to raise an issue accusing the opposition of exploiting (intentionally using spells in a manner that it was not designed to). I don't see why you're all raging at N9 because of it. Dota (and by extension Dota 2) is an extremely complex game where very small things can make very large differences. Nobody knows how the game would have ended had he not exploited it, but his consistent and intentional actions left the admins with no real choice other than to <offer rematch, give win to the non-cheaters>. As to the argument of "maybe they didn't know it was an exploit", this is once again a moot point. Everything that happens in Dota 2 is intended to replicate Dota (1) or it explicitly is mentioned as differing. Any other behavior is a bug. Using bugs to your advantage is exploiting. Exploiting is not acceptable, and may lead to -ff or DQ. Just because IceFrog has acknowledged the bug in a ticket and stated he has fixed it, does not imply that using this bug until it's patch rolls out is acceptable. tl;dr - cheaters gonna cheat. Fire definitely *knew* what they were doing, there's intent, there's motive : it was Fire in the Kitchen with the Lead Piping. |
| #15 About the "does not imply that using this bug until it's patch rolls out is acceptable" you have to know IceFrog said it was fixed on 11-28-11, so it was fixed and then reappeared. Who is going to know that a bug came back? |
| It should've been a remake, but honestly; Fire abused the bug severely when it's obviously not working as intended and are trying to lie themselves out of the situation. Deserved (and more importantly - correct according to the rulebook). If they didn't continue abusing the bug when it was brought to attention I'm sure the situation would be a little less strict. |
| I lost all the respect I had for N9 xMusica wasn't answering to question , look at this fucking wall of text just to answer if they would agree on a rematch ... There was a bug on phase shift and Fire didn't know it , How can you blame them? Of course at some point they realized it , but what should have they done ? ' Ok guys , Let's remake , I think phase shift bugs, We shouldn't win. ' If I was admin of any tournament I'd not even allow N9 to participate , such people are to me the ones cheating What N9 did is comparable to MapHacking imo : Using a cheat to win a game which you can't win yourself. And admins didn't change their decision ? Even worse .... Once again , fail admins, maybe worse than @ SMM , and I just can't describe how bad N9 acted ... I think Musica statement is what made me hate N9 the most #3 is totally right |
| #15 Finally a post in this page I can relate to. Stop going all like "baaww musica such a smooth talker eluding stuff", you're the ones eluding the whole thing - it's pretty obvious what side you're rolling for. ixmike's answers were just as much sweet sugar as musica's, "no we didn't know anything about it at all really i swear".. "Official" talk, nothing else. You don't say "Autocast imba D:" for no reason, cut the bullshit, he perfectly knew what he was doing, he's not some noob who doesn't know how a Phase Shift should work, so at least have the decency to stop being so hypocritical, cheers. The admins didn't react in time ? I can get the "deal with it after the game is done" attitude, which is a perfectly reasonnable one. Would a F1GP referee stop the whole race because he saw something suspicious ? Nah, you wait for the race to end, then you judge properly, and not in the heat of the moment. Same goes for a LOT of sports. FIRE deserved their win, this is such waste to have used this bug anyone with a good level and insight more or less knows about.. I really wonder wtf they were thinking. |
| sorry but autocast imba was a bit agressive. |
| And btw, this really is grey area, so granting one team victory, especially the one that lost is just plain stupid. |
| #21#22 Are you Fire's team manager ? Seriously ? Be glad Fire isn't banned. |
| #23 you do realize most people think that decision was retarded? so you are completely irrelevant. Thanks. |
| I agree that the controversy could have ended with a bug-exploit free rematch, but to say that they thought phase shift was working "as intended" is a bunch of bullshit. I watched the live stream of the game and everyone gave a "LOL" or a "wtf" after the first couple times when puck phased in the middle of a chrono. Anyone that knows anything about dota would know that phase shift isn't supposed to do that. At that point it should have became clear that the bug was still there and autocast should have been taken off. By not doing so they were exploiting a bug that was known to them. Like I said, a rematch would be the most fair, but at the same time bug exploiting is cheating so they should man up and accept the consequences. |
| Looking at this situation from whole other point if i was on n9 place i would love to prove all the haters that Fire won game only thanks to this bug and wanted to show those f*ckers where is their place. I didnt even read this wall of text from xmusica simple questions requires simple answeres example "What was N9's objective during their discussions with DRB's admins? Did your team want a rematch, a best-of-three final, or a disqualification?" xMusiCa:We wanted disqualification. Simple as that |
| #21, #22. Firstly, as I've stated above, it's not a "grey area". They (Fire) knew it was an exploit, N9 knew it was an exploit, the admins knew it was an exploit and the fans knew it was an exploit. Let's assume that N9 had some chance to win the game "P". The value of "P" fluctuated during the early/mid game, but after several key ganks it went down more and more until eventually it reached 0 - they lost the game. The key is to assess how "P" moved based on the actions of Fire. They took a game that N9 had a chance to win (P>0) and they turned it into a game where they had no chance to win (P=0). You can't try say "but Fire were ahead already" because this implicitly implies that you can determine "P", as well as saying that (P<0.5) implies (P->0) [if you're even a little bit behind then you lose]. Fire's actions deliberately *KILLED* the game, and for this they obviously deserve punishment. Another angle to consider is "what if N9 still won?". If they did still win, what should Fire's punishment be? A remake is obviously absurd, so then what? I think most people would agree a ban from the entire tournament organization (future tournaments). |
| I respect both the players and N9 has been playing so well and so has fire...wish this had never happened :( |
| #24 "Most people" is just the first 2 pages of the gg.net comment section which were trolled to death or the NADota forums - best place to talk about such a matter. And since when does the so-called majority always promote the most clever answer ? Please.. A rematch would have been good, but I think it's being too kind towards obvious bug-abuse already. This decision, while not the best, is still pretty win-win for both teams. Again, Fire deserved their win and this bug abusing was just.. It's so stupid. Anyway, there's no point talking with you when you're so fond and fan of one team. HF trolling hard and creating your majority along with 5 people |
| @#30 He's completely right, and that's the feeling of at least 90% of the community. You should get better informed, since one who doesn't fit around is actually you. And this majority includes admins from decent competitions, most of the players from top teams, and the people who actually contribute with something in this and other forums and who are smart enough to be noticed. |
| TC: autocast imba = mean he knoW nothing about the bug ? LOL breaking the rules = DQ |
| #31 Hi famous GGnet troll I see on every thread trolling/flaming hard. See, I'm well informed. And "90%" ( I love homemade stats ) of people thinking the same thing doesn't make it a "valid" option per se. Once again, check most of official sports' federations rulings about something that we could call similar. Most of the cheating issues are dealt with after the events themselves, for good reasons which you won't begin to fathom. I already said a rematch would have been nice, but I feel it's being too nice already. I'm glad that apart from the usual troll/biased clique, most people are reasonnable :) ( By the way, objective observation one can make: just look at the flags ) |
| short version of the issue : fire used a pretty game affecting bug and admins punished them and gave n9 the win. what should have happened : a rematch. 100% of the teams in n9's position would have answered the same thing as them fucking morons, once they got the money they don't give a shit. "admins gave us first prize but we want a rematch" my ass |
| You are saying i'm just a fan of FIRE yet i already stated this is a grey area and i am not siding with any team. Anyone who has any brains won't side with a team because there really is no truth in this situation, that's why a rematach is pretty much necessary. Now, why is N9 getting bashed? They wanted this decision, they did not offer a rematch. + this wall of text from musica is complete piece of shit for anyone who has any brains. Admins should have made a rematch, their decision was terrible, thus all the drama. So please think before talking, FIRE said they were ready for rematch, which puts them in a much better light than N9 with their bullshitting from musica to get a win from already a lost game. |
| #36: ixmike's comments saying they didn't know phase shift was bugged was just as much "a complete piece of shit for anyone who has any brains" so stop flaming musica so hard. You don't even know if the admins would have allowed a rematch. And fire wasn't DQ'd from the tournament, so the result isn't as bad for them as it could have been. |
| #36 I don't feel like the team that uses a bug is in any good light at all, sorry. Honestly, I'd given N9 the win too after the "Autocast imba D:", that spark of badmanner alone justify it to me. A rematch would have been nice ( how many times am I gonna repeat this, wow ), but honestly, it was kind of too late already, and I don't feel it was much deserved. And you're not in the grey area, PLEASE, I've just browsed the previous article about this matter, there are a shitload of comments from you siding with Fire, and not in a very subtle manner. #37 "We didn't know about phaseshift bugged, nor did we notice it during the game", clear answer alright , still hypocritical as fuck. |
| I applaud the actions of the admins. The rules were clearly stated, the players on both side knew that the Phaseshift bug exist at least after the first incident (Fire saying that they thought the Phaseshift worked properly is utter crap). The admins had to, and they did complete the ruling to the rules, if anything they bent the rules to help Fire out. Bottom line is: Fire exploited a bug whilst the rules explicitly told them not to. I don't see a single problem with the ruling, it might not be the best but according to the rules Fire should've been banned from the tournament completely. Rules are there to be followed, they'd be useless otherwise. |
| both teams and admins showed some unprofessionalism.. 1) FIRE shouldnt have continued abusing bug and pretend they didnt notice that puck was phasing trough shackles chronosphere or other disables, and its still unclear if they abused the bug intentionaly or not since i really doubt that in that level of play puck would use autophase all the time while its obviosly more usefull to control it. 2) ADMINS should react faster, when they noticed the bug they shouldve paused the game themselves and solved the problem right away.Instead they let the game go on and then acused FIRE on bug abusing and took the victory from them. 3) N9 also failed to do the right thing by not complaining right away and even talking to enemy team to solve the problem, they waited until they were in a great disadvatage to force the rules on. |
| Guys, imagine you are playing a game and admin observes it and says nothing, why then would you think you cheat or that anything is wrong when he sees everything and does not says a word?! Should have been remaked |
| #41, I'm unsure if your ability to read is somewhat lacking but for your sake I'll re-iterate what I said above: Most admin decisions cannot be made "on the fly". It would be unfair and hasty for them to have decided right then and there what to do when they can't truly assess the situation (they can't rewind and check out the exact circumstances - and even if they could it could alter the outcome of the game by such a long pause). The only fair way (for both teams involved) to resolve the issue was to complete the game as-is, and then handle disputes afterwards - which is what they did. It allowed them to review the actions made by the defendant. N9 *did* pause the game (albeit quite late into the game) asking for admin intervention but after being told that they should continue playing they did without complaint. I see no error on their part. The admins handled the issue 'by-the-book' in a fair and relatively short process - which is, after all, what we expect from them. |
| #42: What if the admin/referee missed the incident in question (just like a punch in a scrum, or a trip in a foot race)? Are you saying that any decision has to be made instantaneously and without consultation of the other admins (who might not have yet seen the incident)? |
| #45: Not to seem like a pedantic N9 fan here (I assure you I'm not), but I don't think N9 really are expected to answer a question like that. Any professional team *WANTS* to win. It would be more honourable to offer a remake - but I don't think you should insult them for failing to give a hand-up to a team that just cheated against them and wrote "Autocast imba D:". The fact that he didn't give any direct answer says a lot more about who he is than if he replied "lol, bring it anyday we'll crush them. cheating dogs". |
| "With that as a backdrop we firmly believe that all cheating or bug exploits must be severely and instantly dealt with. To us it did not matter whether or not we got the win" Again, with the bug "exploit". If roshan gave out 2 cheese when you killed him and the admins gave the team a go, that's not called bug exploit. If a spell goes through BKB when it isn't supposed to and the admins give them a green light, that isn't a bug exploit. musica does not mention rematch at any point, nor did they offer to the admins to just remake the game (if they said "hey guys u want to remake w.o bugs") the admins would have been fine with it. The fact that N9 waited to lose and then ran to the admins (which I guarantee you 100%) to cry, just shows that they accepted to play with the bug, and just used it as a trump card in case they lost. That right there is what you call corrupt eSports administration, for both N9 and the Admins that enabled this decision. |
| #45 haha :D #43 It wasnt kind of bug that was not solveable, they did nothing to ensure a fair game all they did was cleaning the mess after the damage was already done.. |
| It's just noob refs/admins for this torunament.nuff said. |
| #47 Your whole "if admin don't say shit about it it's not an exploit" paradigm is pretty darn funny. "If the police doesn't catch a murderer then he hasn't murdered anyone and is a fine lad" would be the logical counterpart of it. |
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