SearchBalance Patch Coming
Posted by Jimmy "DJTyrant" Blocksom 1 year ago
Bashiok has responded to a thread on the StarCraft 2 general forums, quelling concern that balance changes wouldn't be coming till the next expansion.
With the game only being out for three weeks, there has been a fervor of complaints about Terran being too powerful in the game and other races not being able to keep up with Terran players of the same skill level, players of all skills levels have been noticeably been very vocal about the situation, most notably the Zerg player IdrAIdrA.
Full response to the thread is here:
(Hopefully this doesn't read too harsh, it's been a tough Monday. ;) <3 <3 <3)
Our intent is not to have a game with broken balance in an attempt to sell an expansion. That should go without saying. It makes me sad it isn't.
Our intent is also to not apply knee jerk fixes based on the first few weeks as understanding of the game and strategies are still in flux. The game is young, and we don't feel that it would have been helpful to progressing peoples understanding by throwing in tons of fixes based on flavor-of-the-week (or day, or hour) strats.
We see a lot of variation between the regions. Making a change for how NA players play may be completely ridiculous for how KR players play, and actually mess up a balance there. For instance 10 of their top 20 players are zerg. So that's one place where we have to be mindful and careful and attack balance issues with great prejudice.
That said. There are balance changes coming. What everyone was seeing in beta with tons of quick balance changes are because it was in beta and we feel we can get away with throwing out a lot of 'we think this may help' type fixes. With a live environment we're not going to throw stuff out there unless we're pretty sure. We've played. We've looked at data. We've looked at each region. And then we act. Which isn't to say we may not be wrong from time to time, but it's a more measured approach than beta players may be used to or expecting.
Our intent is not to have a game with broken balance in an attempt to sell an expansion. That should go without saying. It makes me sad it isn't.
Our intent is also to not apply knee jerk fixes based on the first few weeks as understanding of the game and strategies are still in flux. The game is young, and we don't feel that it would have been helpful to progressing peoples understanding by throwing in tons of fixes based on flavor-of-the-week (or day, or hour) strats.
We see a lot of variation between the regions. Making a change for how NA players play may be completely ridiculous for how KR players play, and actually mess up a balance there. For instance 10 of their top 20 players are zerg. So that's one place where we have to be mindful and careful and attack balance issues with great prejudice.
That said. There are balance changes coming. What everyone was seeing in beta with tons of quick balance changes are because it was in beta and we feel we can get away with throwing out a lot of 'we think this may help' type fixes. With a live environment we're not going to throw stuff out there unless we're pretty sure. We've played. We've looked at data. We've looked at each region. And then we act. Which isn't to say we may not be wrong from time to time, but it's a more measured approach than beta players may be used to or expecting.
The differences between Korean and American realms was brought up a lot during the beta, and most recently the most recent BlizzCast. Do you think this is something that can be fixed to balance the game in both regions? What changes do you think should be made?
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| Marauder/Rine/Ghosts can fight any Zerg unit except broodlords which are a pain for ground troops. |
| #90 +1 |
| 31: to hell with you dude. I'm not diamond, but I'm top of platinum and often beat diamond, so STFU. |
| Use manners please.. This is a discussion not a hating place. |
| #45... Um...I love it when Zerg FE and make 5 spine crawlers....it's auto win for me as toss, so.... |
| So many people here aren't getting the reason why Terran is OP, at least in my opinion. Terran have too many options available to them at any time. Aside from ghosts, they don't have to build any structure for any of their units except the basic Barracks, Factory, and Starport. Once they get those three structures, they have every unit open to them. Their strategies are just dictated by what they produce, not what they build which makes them never have to risk anything tech wise. For example, Protoss has to build a Robo Bay no matter what because at any point in the game Terran can decided to pump out a Banshee with cloak, so we're forced to get a Robo Bay, we have to commit a lot of resources just to counter a unit that might or might not be produced. We can get some Immortals out and tech to Collosals for a ton of resources but Terran can just get a few Vikings from their already built Starport to rape them. As I said we are forced to build the Robo, if we want any air unit we have to once again go way out of our way and spend a lot of resources on the Stargate and the expensive units from the Stargate. Once again though, the Terran have counters at hand from their already built structures. It's the same if we want Dark Templars. Dark Shrine costs 250 gas, takes forever to build, and is easily scouted. Terran has to build a Raven from the Starport they already have. Not to mention Ravens have a lot of good abilities other than just detection so they are a good investment no matter what. The only time Terran has to go out of their way to build something would be if we get High Templars. They have to get EMP but EMP vs Temps isn't even a fight. If Protoss decided to go Temps, a couple ghosts are pretty much GG if the Terran is decent. Not to mention Terran can do all of this off 1 base while still having a huge bio army. Terran don't have to COMMIT to anything like Protoss does. Once we make a tech choice, we have to COMMIT to it and once its countered we're pretty much done. |
| terr has to switch addons for different tech, how is that not comparable to support bay which u only need 1 and can mass robotics instead, or massgateways which opens more units than the baracks (which needs special addon for certain units, for every barack) Zerg has the best macro, zerg can easily make 130/200 to 200/200 within seconds after a battle with 3-4 hatcheries, terr cant switch units like zerg and toss do, its either mass marauders / marines (ghost) or you have lost, you have to make several new macro buildings to switch unit comp during the game, its not like toss needs anything more than mass gateways to win anyways :s |
| I dont find the buildings a problem at all. Its the actual units that are the problem. They are simply.. Too good. For example.. Would the problem be better if tech lab would be increased to 50/50? No. The problem would still exist. Reapers rock.. Thats just how it is. |
| Why do you aaaaalllwaays complain about those reapers and banshees? If you can't counter them, you can't play (simple). I am diamond and I sometimes go reaper and if my opponante is good enough than I can't do anything. If you're toss and terr goes banshees, this means that he will have like 0 attackunits on the ground before making a banshee. You need to take your troops and attack his frontdoor like in sc1 where goons always attack the frontdoor->standard play in sc1 (always check his frontdoor to see if he has units or not and how many racks he has). And than what is the terran gonna do? Nothing! If his SCV's make it in time to repair than your stalkers will kill them. That's the risk the terran will have to take if he goes fast banshees. I try this and if P doesn't attack me than yes , I usually win but if he does -> I lose 100%. Everyone keeps crying about banshees here, than what about void rays? Those are 10x more pain in the ass than banshees and as far as I know, you can make void rays a lot faster than banshees. First learn to play! Than complain! |
| 109: "Fast banshees" is NOT what I'm talking about anyway. And it's not that big of a commitment for a Terran to work one banshee into his build anyway, since they are going to make a starport no matter what anyway.. It's not even that "I'm" having trouble against any particular unit, because I do, but I still get wins, but it's not just me...like I said, look at the top replays and streams where players that are better than most anyone on this thread just end up GGing because of one banshee, even in middle game sometimes. The fact it hasn't happened to you just means you've either been lucky or played sorry opponents. |
| Thats just bullshit.. Why the hell would they GG because of one banshee? Ridiculous.. Noobs i call em. |
| lot's of QQ. "They should just reduce the bonus movement speed on WW, and possibly introduce unit collision so that when a noob player gets dusted and surrounded he can't just go 'LOLLER' and run away." Any of this sound familiar? |
| I saw replay and really reapers just destroy traditional map layout with one entrance. And IMO not necessary we should wait while Billzz will do something about it. Mapmakers should adapt to this and start making maps with more barricaded natural main like rivers around or something like that. Even for Brood war it is easy to create imba map. ;) |
| WITH REPSECT TO PvT discussion-: I was number one in my diamond division for about a couple days. Then began playing about 20- 30 games per day and currently ranked about 38. Met an insane amount of terran players and you can bet your bottom dollar 9/10 of them WILL go some sort of heavy infantry based combo e.g. MM, M3, or MM&ghosts...and 7/10 times they will win. the only reason a terran player looses when using infantry is if he sucks. Once he's a mediocre and above player it is very very difficult as a protoss player to counter. zealots, stalker usually loose to mass terran infantry becuase of stim MM kiting. add sentries in your mix, u have to actually hide them somehow when defending a ramp otherwise ghosts will emp them, taking away one of your very few hopes in the game, which is to split the army in half by use of forcefield. if the game progresses- high templars=very expensive and you would usually have one by the time a good terran player decides to rush you with his first infantry ball. The high templars usually work out of if the terran player decides to delay his attack to get medivacs and a sizeable army. at this time if you keep the temps far at the back from EMP the tides of this diffucult battle may turn here. Colossus are risky, robo facility usually has to to be hidden to gain a few minutes of actual use, before a reactor is added to a starport and vikings are produced en masse. with that said however, I have actually won most of my PvZ's with un-upgraded collussus/stalker build.( the extra 200/200 for extendted thermal lance can go towards producing more colossus when rushing them) Even though the stalkers are pummeled by stimmed MM, while they are attacking the vikings, u can hope to have enough of both units, so that...the colossus would pummel the infantry, and the stalkers would defeat the vikings, before your entire army dies. I like to think of it like this : imagine a base race.....but instead of a rush to raze buildings....its a rush to kill units. protoss guys indeed its a very very hard matchup HOWEVER, we should also look into using hallucinations to bait EMPS also imo, a early robo facility (sometimes risky), to get obs is really useful to scout the terran base to see exactly how you need to tweak your army. Every terran ball is not the same and depending how marine or maruder intensive the army is , could determine weather you need to add collusus, or if you can stick to immortals and zel, sentry. With that said, i would like to add my 2 cents to what a future patch should contain. 1. EMP should become a researchable upgrade. reason =150/150 for a ghost, is quite cheap (after building a very quick ghost academy), and on top of that the ghost immediately comes out with 2 spells, snipe and EMP. not kool.EMP is too devastating of a spell to have without a research 2. possibly, an upgrade for sentries to start out with extra 25 energy(just like every other caster in the game) enabling guardian shield to be immediately available later on in the game. |
| Hi all,if anyone know how to win a battle 200/200 (zerg) vs 200/200 (protoss/terran),please send me a PM, if u give me a good method ill pay you with love and hard sex ;) :). Please buff zerg or nerf TERRAN(Specially TERRAN) and protoss xD.  |
| so guys, look at the dimaga vs demuslim, and the races they played. i dont think that i have to say more |
| Though terran isnt as op as people think, i think they will nerf tanks and reaper nitro boost upgrade, perhaps also make the reaper granade a research |
| #117 The only nerf Tanks need is that they can overkill an target... It is pretty retarded that with Group of 20 Tanks, only one shoots for one Zergling... So they don't have counters like they did in SC1 with Drops or Charging Zealots. I mean, you can still do it, but it is way harder and in the end not really worth it... |
| u guys are all wrong about korea... even in korean community sc2 website, people saying that terran really should be down for balance, which means terrans are too strong in every rigion. people saying terran is very good race to win than other races(and i totally agree with that as a random player)... this is the real current top 20 in korea(i dont know when the blizzard get that top20 in korea) TOP 20 in Korea terran: 10 players zerg: 6 players protoss: 4 players TOP 20 in America terran: 7 players zerg: 1 player(wtf???) protoss: 11 players(...) random: 1 player TOP 20 in Europe terran: 10 players zerg: 5 players protoss: 5 players TOP 20 in Taiwan terran: 4 players zerg: 7 players protoss: 8 players random: 1 player as u see terrans are also dominating in korea as well, korean zergs were imba, but as many terran players get to know to play their race, zergs are struggling hard against them... |
| #119 Thx for the info. Please keep us updated what the Koreans think. Somehow I think Blizzard is still thinks that Korea owns US and EU still. I can't wait for GSL. It can only be good. Either the Terrans win or Zerg/Protoss surprise me in a positive way. |
| #120 no problem :D but, still i dont know what blizzards are thinking... especially korean zerg players say "if blizzard nerf zerg again, than they are doing the most jerk balance ever." blizzard maybe think about korea like 2 months ago... i play diamond league as a random player, and i have highest percentage to win when i play terran. And more importantly for this article, blizzard should know about no more zerg dominations in korea... terran dominations can possibly come to korea from right now xd |
| Baneling/ling/muta + an infestor or 2. This strategy is brutal as hell to deal with when its in the hands of a skilled player. If you go heavy on the mutas you will force a terran player to make more rines and thors rather than tanks, try it. Harass the crap out of the terran, its very strong. |
| #121 Blizzard waits for new tactics ..for terran , I think they thinking that way :P #122 ....Its not fully true , Zerg must adopt to teran play style , and SHOW more skills to beat it ! Look.. Teran makes for example mass ripers .. what zerg can do in early game ? Roches...or try to go fast mutas , zerg need fast exp to play whit teran ..he must place there spore for def ... And what teran do ? Only haras whit ripers.. then maby hellions from behind to workers , zerg go def def def , then terran come whit banshes , from these 1/1/1 teran build whit addon swich , or maby vikings Its only one example , there are many more ... You see what i try tosay whit my bad english ?:d |
| All the guys saying 'bout statistics, check this out Top 200 Lots of terrans on top and not much of zergs |
| Race wars gogo! |
| #111 because one banshee obliterated their whole worker line ... |
| 126: Exactly, and at top skill levels, it's virtually impossible to come back when you are down 10, 15, even 20 workers....which as stated, very often a single banshee gets that many kills even in pro gamer vs pro gamer. Nine times out of ten, you must eithe rimmediately return the favor of devastating the other guys' economy, or immediately win off some sort of counter push...otherwise you simply are not coming back from a 10 worker deficit. I saw a top TvT replay recently, and one guy even made 3 "well placed" missile turrets in his mineral line and gas, and had marines, but the first banshee still managed to kill 6 workers and 2 marines, then fly away... the only thing kept the first T in the game as long as he lasted was the fact he ends up getting a banshee of his own and returning the favor, which kinda slowed the other guy down some. Something is kinda wrong with a unit when even the "hard counter" does not protect you from it... |
| zergling buff plz |
| for ME game is balanced i am toss and pvt is easiest mu 90% freewin just cause i not play the shitt all other p play xD |
| terrans are op |
| Just hope they wont nerf terran bio to much. Mass mech is damn boring to play against. |
| People should realize that there is more then just raw attack power. Why all Ppl crying that Terran units are SO imbalanced, did u ever thought about the unique abilties that Zerg contains? May it be that u can instantly switch from x to y or the fact, that Zerg has so many different ways to approach. Ppl should just try to be creative, there are SO many things u can do with zerg actually. |
| #129 thats why u own every tour. Now i know, where i heard the Nick "ColorsOfRainbow" - he is winning every tour. with his sick new tactics... -_____- |
| if every one play terran game is gone balance T>P>Z thats game is gone die soon only one is good thats is name Star Craft |
| what did you want to say? |
| 132: there are, we got 10 attacking units (while one is just usefull on creep and needed for larva production) while T has what.. 14? you also need to keep in mind that this game has a HUGE snowball effect; a dominating early game (i'm not even talking about a successfull all-in) on equal skill level will mostly result in economic advantages throughout the mid and late game. hence a race with more possible early-game BOs like Terran will be more successfull over time. i know how insane broodlords are once you get them, and how devastating ultralisks in a nice unit mix could be, but you mostly wont even reach T3 as zerg except the enemy was only macroing all the time, which is pretty uncommon. |
| #19 totaly agree not only the terran mec thats need nerf... and iff u open whit a stalker and they skip the reaper and just rush u whit rauder u are dead... |
| Personally I think that Toss and Zerg as of now are somewhat "underprivileged" to Terran, but only when it comes down to a pure MMM build or a 5-rax reaper build a la mouzMorrow. Gosu-Zerg Player Sen's Fast Expansion strategy has proven to be a solid ground for Zerg players in general up until the mid-game if reapers could be avoided. In my Platinum Division games there might be more noobs than progamers, however, Toss' early zeal rush can be very frustrating at times due to their fast building time. Nonetheless, the fuss about Terran being overpowered is to a great extent true. Still, the patch will mostly benefit ZvP, but Terran's bio units will still claim dominance in a ZvT. |
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