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TI2 where the community stands

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#1 ValueR


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Posted 30 August 2012 - 12:35 PM

before i introduce. i have a few disclaimers:
- someone is writing this so moderators don't delete post.
- an off-topic part of the post is important to understand the whole picture of where ggnet and the players are now regarding ti2
- there won't be a tl;dr.
- don't reply if you haven't read.
- i expect mods to nuke unnecessary replies.


the beginning of ggnet.

Dota-allstars.com was the main and official dota portal website. Pendragon and Icefrog the main adminstrators of the site got into conflict, it wasn't unexpected since both are ron paul voters. Pendragon owned the servers, icefrog looked for help in having a new website playdota. in the mean time several tournaments were running, mymym was getting a rehaul and it had a shortage of staff.

everyone turned on to ggnet and stuck with it as it has alot of posts, location, no sigs and avatars, this is important since you don't have to scroll a page down 50 meters to read only 10 replies as opposed to the typical forums nowadays.

Now GGnet had zeyall mr.blue ereskigal caissa raistlin mcbat hyouro as well as many other members who became temporarily staff.

gamescom 2009 occured, freezer mvp, loda and misery won exteammates, drama occured a bit. ggnet covered it nicely, and many users started hoarding into the site. some interviews of very bad pubbers like sacraloth occured from time to time, but all in all it had content updated on regular basis.

Maelk announced he had little time to play dota, he was gonna study and have fun with his imaginary girlfriend as SMM was coming up. at that time there were only 2 real european teams aside from DTS, loda's team, and mym team. mym recruited kuroky and won loda's team, alot of the fangirls suddenly became mym fans and kuroky fans once again after seeing him play ursa, which he copied from Cybertime's mushi. the conflict started here.

Asia dota championship(ADC) was being played, and at that time the main coverage of most dota portals was on the european scene, NA scene was more or less dead, Asia scene was considered inferior because asian teams lost due to lag and sometimes when they went to dreamhack they dint do well.

Mushi and winter, 2 players in CT started using slardar+TA, and ursa mid strat. they had very convincing results in ADC, iceiceice used darkseer and owned, iceiceice used windrunner which was pretty weak pre-buffs and had good results.

what happened was. mym and fnatic clashed in a finals of some tournament, and kuroky did the same ursa item and spellbuild as mushi did, and they managed to win. fangirls were delighted and ecstatic, most of them remained in ignorance to were this came from, several days later, a resurgance in darkseer picks was spotted, it was creditted to joliE. some prominent members on gosugamers begged to differ, mostly malaysians and singaporeans as well as some chinese.

on to the conflict, the moderators were huge fanboys of european teams, they thought they are skilled enough to recognize where true skill is. This wasn't unexpected because the coverage was based mainly and the hype on european scene. Asian supporting members were getting censored, Asian supporting members were being labeled as trolls for saying Mushi>misery. Asian supporting members were being flamed by european supporting members which was a majority, and the flames were only censored if the asians retaliated.

Progress of the conflict, SMM 2009 was coming up, MYM was sending their squad there, a poll was done on ggnet regarding who would win it, and more than 50% of the members voted for MYM to clinch the title. the prominent asian supporting members who recognized true skill, were namely, tinyrock bigrock hugerock blure EMC lich_king garaalz cornucopia ynp slickdragon(now known as azarkon after he moved from his old location) as well as other honorary members were getting heavily teased by mods and members of the community labeled as trolls, some staff got their titles revoked for speaking up. These members claimed how good people like yamateh and snoy were, posting up numbers such as 200 cs in 20 minutes and 300 cs in 30 minutes (the most european hardcarry could get at that time was 150 cs in 30 minutes).
hence the banhammers were dropped.

SMM 2009 was soon to be played, top 8 was filled with 5 chinese teams and 3 malaysian teams, mym won an all girls team in groupstage, but lost to other teams pretty quickly and convincingly, mostly unknown teams to the majority of the ggnet community.

resolution. fangirls in the european scene as well as the moderators couldn't fathom the fact that the asian teams were better and what the few prominent members were saying was true. hence the threads which were labeled later on as "flamebaits" started. europeans called asians triumph a fluke. that kuroky picked really badly, basically came up with all excuses ranging from jetlag to some really funny ones.

fear not, another tournament was going to happen, this time europe's champion team, Enothome which was loda's team, was goign to regain europe's bragging rights by getting invited to ADL in china.

the same scenario repeats itself, the small asian group of members which supported and recognized true skill of the asian teams said that fnatic won't win a game and were faced with bitter criticism from players ranging from ducky to loda to mindless fangirls.

before ADL takes place, EnotHOME plays a 5 stack pub game, against zsmj and 4 unknown pubbers, zsmj takes storm spirit, manages to dodge every blackhole stormbolt lina spell to miraculously carry his team of 4 pubbers to victory against EnotHOME. A chinese member posts the chatlog of the game where zsmj says in chinese that beating fnatic was easier than beating ehome.

For some reason Enothome were displeased by this statement, loda ducky misery came on ggnet dota forum and flamed the hell out of zsmj one of the most honorable and humble players of all time. the flames from others came in as well, the gist of it was, "how dare zsmj compare us to a chinese team, we are so much better and were just having fun in pub".

ADL takes place, EnotHOME goes home after showing very weak results. the most surprising thing to some were the russians(lightofheaven) who were able to take 2nd place, but this was due to the fact that asians din't play the game map which was put in ADL, while europe and russia were very uptodate with icefrog's releases.

again the members of asian supporting group got banhammers while similar european fanbois labeled them trolls and flamed them without getting banned. examples are too many, but a simple case would be www.gosugamers.net/dota/members/mrballer compared to http://gosugamers.net/dota/members/lich_king
as you can see the levels of tolerance. flame once after getting flamed while supporting asian team = ban. flame as many times as you want while supporting a european team is excused.

this is getting too long, but this scenario of european fangirls getting horny everytime ducky or maelk make a post saying how they're gonna own the asians when they face them, gets repeated too many times in many various tournaments from SMM 2010 ESWC 2010 etc.

something to notice is that the asian supporting members, have left the site and stopped updating the forum with news from chinese and asian teams. little was covered, ggnet crew tried to ammend this situation by recruiting some SEA and chinese crew, but it was the european scene news that garnered the most coverage. dota.sgamer dota.replays.net baidu 178 where were real news was posted yet no one cared to translate and post it on ggnet anymore. until everyone managed to wake up to the fact that asians were better than europeans, the europeans managed to completely wipe china from the asian map, suddenly china is not part of asia, and to save face, the argument then was asia=eu > china. which is completely false. the activity of SEA teams dropped down tremendously while chinese activity was rising higher than ever.


TI is announced, chinese get into major reshuffle just before the event. valve did not send the chinese pcs to play the game. chinese arrive at the event with little practice not able to differentiate between spells, not preparing enough. most of them thought not much of the tournament, thought it was a scam or that it was similar to dota1 in terms of heroes(which wasn't the case cause many heroes weren't available).

europe wins TI. everyone jumps on the navi bandwagon and suddenly is a navi fan even though pre TI, no one supported navi, and everyone supported mym.

fast forward to the many european tournaments which took place, suddenly everyone was claiming that europeans are much better at ganking and pushing that boring asian farmers. (the same statement was said in 2009 and 2010). when iG was anounced an invite, many voiced their opinions saying iG were bad and should not be invited because they were still playing dota 1. 3 months ago the chinese start playing dota2.

fast forward to the ti2. 29-3 stomp by iG against Na'Vi. everyone is silent. wtf happened? how could this be? how is it that the boring farmers are pushing and ganking better than the best team in the world? the answer was out there years ago, its just that many people revert their eyes away from it.

LGD 14-0 run. DK 11-3 run.

nothing much to say other than the fantasy of deluded fangirls who never learn and never want to face the truth is overwhelming.


the teams ethnicities or location is not the factor here. its the mentality. NaVi as well as other teams have been bootcamping and getting salaries to play the game, there should be no excuses. they have had a long head start and they should be on top of TI2. however the individual skill which comes individually and not regionly happens to be located in china and in alot of players.

the ggnet community after recruiting godz has been more or less homogenius and accepting to accepting the fact that chinese are good at the game even though theyre always skeptic and always wanna believe european scene teams are on top.

biggest jokes are members like www.gosugamers.net/dota/members/azarkon who are on their high horse claiming that the chinese are bad players simply because they play with lag without whining about it, losing, saying ggwp and taking the loss without any hard feelings. the new moderators are surely much more unbiased in their actions and way less abusive, which is very welcoming, but it's sad that the old moderators who drove many members away from the site have moved on to a different site, while those many members who are away, will just have to settle for a different site than ggnet or joindota, where reddit.com/r/dota2 is seemingly the best possible alternative.

alot of threads now are giving unneeded attention to what other members wrote or said, which isn't really important, what's important is to acknowledge other team's strength even if you aren't a fan of them per se. rather than flaming and then acting as if you know it all. the staff of the new ggnet are doing a great job at maintaining a slowly dieing community. sure there aren't trolls anymore, but there aren't as much useful information coming into the dota2 forum as should be.

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#2 Supatroll


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Posted 30 August 2012 - 12:38 PM

you should really make a conclusion or a tldr paragraph because few have the courage to read everything and yet would still like to reply
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#3 roMAD


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Posted 30 August 2012 - 12:58 PM

Nowadays, it's more like Azarkon vs the rest of the world, as most people claiming eu > asia have faced the truth and began to recognize the strength of Asian Dota as superior. But we'll have to wait until TI2 ends to see how it goes. Who knows, maybe NaVi will really win it?
I am new to the Dota scene/community, so a lot of info was new to me, although some of the points sounded too farfetched. And i'd also like to ask you to arrange your writing a bit better for a more comfortable read.
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#4 LegoLas



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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:04 PM

I seriously don't want a tl;dr version of this. Though you might have missed a lot of parts in between, well that needed to be done to make it as short as possible but it was a fantastic read.
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#5 SwineEyedSheep


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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:07 PM

Damn I have read every words and couldn't agree more. I sure miss those days where entire EU vs tinyrock and now every word he had said back then have become true. Damn I miss him lol
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#6 960


    Dendi Pudge

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:09 PM

and the point of the entire post is?

before ADL takes place, EnotHOME plays a 5 stack pub game, against zsmj and 4 unknown pubbers, zsmj takes storm spirit, manages to dodge every blackhole stormbolt lina spell to miraculously carry his team of 4 pubbers to victory against EnotHOME. A chinese member posts the chatlog of the game where zsmj says in chinese that beating fnatic was easier than beating ehome.

For some reason Enothome were displeased by this statement, loda ducky misery came on ggnet dota forum and flamed the hell out of zsmj one of the most honorable and humble players of all time. the flames from others came in as well, the gist of it was, "how dare zsmj compare us to a chinese team, we are so much better and were just having fun in pub".

Not that it matters much, but yueru/super was one of those pubbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if the others were known players with fake nicks as well.

Also I don't remember Loda flaming zsmj. I'm sure he has never flamed any of his opponents.

These things aren't important really though.
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#7 COBHateCrew


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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:10 PM

You sir are right.
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#8 blazar


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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:18 PM

pretty good and interesting read, especially since i remember some of those users like tinyrock and etc pooring their hearts out on these forums, only to get flaimed like hell, lol.

however, you have to realise that most of gg.nets' members aren't from asia (especially china), they're mostly european or from english speaking countries, since the news is written in english. so it makes sense to give them news that they would like to read. that's how it is with news, although the real media is much worse.

i've also noticed the population fall.. kinda sad.
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#9 blazar


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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:23 PM

btw, the REAL TRUTH is that all builds and strats always first appear in pub. i've pretty much done every build and combo i could think of every time a new change log came out, way before they appear in tourneys. GOD BLESS PUB!
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#10 Hcl_Cerin


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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:40 PM

The China scene is hard to cover because of language,time zones and it was professional so u had to pay to be able to watch or get replay.

So its logical for ggnet to turn to their source of income and that is eu,its pure
need to survive as a site.

I think that anyone that has any kind game sense could take a replay
and see that china teams were/are way better from eu teams as they were practicing in lan conditions with a trainer while eu teams were hoping to not
make a roster change every week,that being said i think its not a skill difference
between the 2 scenes its only that u cant show your skill if team has bad teamplay.

Look at NA scene,it has developed in a few months and can compete with chineese because they train hard and dont make roster changes every few days.

As Xbcot said:its a disaster,thats what happends when u play so long together
and realise the level u can reach and when u dont ur dissapointed.

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