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Dota 2 simplicity

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#1 cilium

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 10:12 AM

/there is tl;dr at the bottom :D/
With the added recently overhead timer for Replicate and the effects for strength and agility Morph, I just thought I'd finally touch a bit on these "issues" (for me).
I feel that Dota 2 is shifting too much from the competitive aspect it has/had.
Before I say why, I'm gonna make an analogy here (that a lot of people from the SC2/BW community might not like but oh well :P)
Starcraft 2's mechanics are a lot simpler than BW, you can rally a worker to your mineral line straight from your worker producing building (don't want to make it complicated for people who are not familiar with SC2) - you can't do that in BW, you have to manually select every worker and rally it. By the simplicity of SC2 (in that WORKER aspect), we get to see more APM focused on the REAL DEAL which is battles across the map, drop play, (adding more creep tumor on the map), even microing 2 single units. That worker rally simplicity is good for the game because it makes room for different things.

The difference between Dota 2 and SC2 is that Dota 2 REALLY is a game of the little things (not that SC2 isn't but that's a lot more obvious in Dota 2) Starcraft 2 for example is a lot more forgiving (to some extent) - for example you can lose a whole dropship with 10 units in it the lategame and that won't be that big of a deal. You can still comeback with some flank taking out an important building. You can lose a single unit in early game and although it has its little impact, you won't be at a huge disadvantage, there's always room to make up for your mistakes and completely outplay your opponent.
While I agree that it's the same to some extent in Dota 2 - when you give first blood for example, I'm sure anyone will agree that when you die in a 1v1 lane, you ARE at a big disadvantage and it's often really hard to comeback without a gank (if both players are similarly skilled).

I'm going to give you an example with Morphling
What a pro player will do with Morph's replicate is assign the replicate to a control group and (probably), move it around the map, constantly microing between the 2 control groups that he has, check the timer on it - when is it gonna vanish etc. If you are a quick player, when switching between the 2 - that won't be a big deal for you as you'll be able to realize what's going on the map and your own lane fast enough (cause you're a quick player). What this change does is to make room for more less skilled and less quick players to focus on their lane without checking the timer on their replicate. One might say that this allows you to focus on the lane micro etc. like Starcraft 2, but that's bullshit (excuse me), we often have to move only 1 unit so it's not really 'micro-intensive' and there's not a lot of room to improve besides just last-hitting on the lane and good positioning. Sure, some players are BETTER than others in that regard (and obviously you can improve in that regard), but I still think making changes such as this replicate timer and str/agil stuff takes away from the competitive/pro players.

The problem with the str/agil indicator I'm sure a lot of people will agree that sometimes people just make a mistake (because of stress or not being focused enough) and they click the wrong button without realizing it for a few seconds. That's a type of mistake that's NOT THAT COMMON but might still be detremental. What this change does is to help you see that mistake easily and remove it even though you're not that focused and you're stressed at a LAN (because you lack experience like PGG :D).

It's the same to some extent with the spell/rune timers (Although I love them and they've probably improved my gameplay a lot, I'm pretty sure that a lot of Chinese players or some EU pros have been hurt a bit by that by making their extreme knowledge about timers just simply fade away. We've seen pro players rely on timings - I'm sure a lot of other teams do it aswell but take for example Na`Vi - they rely on timings when they're about to cast their spells at the same time. (Dendi has spoken about it in his video blog, like remembering the spell timings of your teammates etc)

Also, Invoker not being played with legacy keys just makes my soul suffer :( The whole concept of the hero has always been to be complicated, like a wizard (hi SingSing) who has to think of so many spell combinations. It has always been our pride when giving analogies to some angry SC2/LoL/HoN/Wc3 fan who comes at the forums and says that Dota 2 is an easy game. What has he become? Went straight from a 13 keys hero to a 5 keys hero.

/Yes, I agree that it makes the game noob friendly and probably attracts more players/

Sure, there are still just about a billion things you can do in the game to completely turn some game situations around and you can say that I'm exaggerating a bit to try and look like a Dota 2 hipster but I really think that these changes are hurting the competitive aspect of the game.
If you can give some more examples, please do. I'd also love to hear some pro players on the matter. :)

tl;dr Dota 2 is more simple than it was and I think the (competitive/pro) community should discuss that
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#2 Dinozavre

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 11:22 AM

Didn't read.

All these things don't affect the strategy of the game, sure it makes it more simple but you can just consider it a buff to morph that he can see when his replicate is about to expire. This doesn't affect how teams pick/ban and how they behave in game. Dota is much more of a strategy game than action. All about making correct decisions, small things like this won't affect anything.
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#3 The_4Lb1N0S

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 12:22 PM

Dota less forgiving? i disagree. They are rather equal, exepted that in sc YOU have to manage everything, whereas in dota 1 it's much easier to avoid "stupid mistakes" (in sc, because of the huge macro, forgetting a squad is common).
Dying on solo lane 1v1? it's indeed not good at all for you, but you can't compare that to the loss of a single dropship uh. If dota was a 1v1 game (as it is during the solo lane phase, for some extent, and in a random pub :D), dying on lane would be like losing your entire army in early game in SC: you have to rebuild everything while your opponent gains an advantage, though he can't win yet (not all the time).
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#4 GGnet.Ace

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 12:41 PM

It took me 4 months of empty playing to actually make an impact on my team's winning chance.
Dota is not user friendly lets be honest.Yes dota 2 is way easier as dota SHOULD BE for right clicking the runes, for the hotkeys ,for the custom inventory etc even for picking default hotkeys for 2ndary units such as centaurs spirit bear satyrs etc.
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#5 Borntolag

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 04:24 PM

Really, this forum is full of scrubs.

You didn't even notice that, when you have replica up, morph has a buff and you can perfectly see there when it is going to expire. Anyway, in Dota that timer also exists, it isn't new from Dota 2

The timers make no difference, rather than crying because those timers, you should cry about how easy morph can change stats now. In dota you had to use right click to activate automorphing or use a specified bind for it, from 6 binds to 4 or 4 binds + 2 right clicks to just 4 binds.
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#6 ngazirrrrrrrrrrrrr

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 05:46 PM

Wait you can't single morph now?
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#7 Borntolag

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 08:26 PM

#5

That's right, you can't go with 1 click = 8 str or 8 agi, now when you press the button it keeps locked and unless you press again or press the other morph, you will keep morphing the stats. In addition, instead of changing morph's color there is an aura-like effect, which I prefer, but the bind thing no.
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#8 cilium

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 05:04 AM

#4
"If you can give some more examples, please do. I'd also love to hear some pro players on the matter. :)"
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#9 Rightkillthaz

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 02:05 PM

Maybe it's because it wasn't possible to do in WC3? And the timer also was there in DotA.
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#10 tain

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 07:04 PM

if it's getting too simple for you... go make a team and win international! (i didn't read it, ppl make things short...)
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