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roach/infester zvt?

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#1 DazedSpy

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 11:07 PM

I would prefer to do one of the more orthodox unit compositions like ling/infester or bane/ling/muta, but my computer lags hard whenever I have too many tiny units on my screen. Aka, whenever I play zvt and build lings, I lag too hard to actually use them in anything resembling a coherent fashion. In my time as a non zerg I ran across infester/roach builds zvt, and ive heard a few people make illusions to them here and there. Clearly not wildly popular, Im not even sure if its considered a real unit composition at higher levels or if its just something newbs play around with. Regardless, its basically the only composition I can think of which wouldnt lag me non stop.

Is it valid? Strengths, weaknesses? Whats the actual build? Is the mentality attaking a lot? dropping? what? Any explanations would be appreciated. :D
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#2 RamiZ

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 09:59 PM

Roaches are a lot like Protoss units, they have a ton of HP and they do great damage per hit, but their attack speed is very slow, which results into bad dps. As far as I know, Roaches are the worst dps units in whole Zerg arsenal. Because of these characteristics, Roaches/Infestor army is really good in ZvP, since Protoss units are kinda alike, as I said, but you really shouldn't go for it in ZvT.


In theory, this strategy can be used against Terran because Roaches are good at soaking damage, and you can kill everything else with Infested Terrans/Fungal growth, but that is only in theory. Terran units, on the contrary to the Protoss ones, aren't that tanky, but they have a lot of dps, your Roaches won't be able to deal that much damage, they will die to Marine/Marauder/Tank power before you can do anything with them or the fungal growth.
Also, Zerg really needs all the gas he can mine for later units, and even though Roaches doesn't cost that much gas at all, you can really see in the long run how massing Roaches affects your economy when you have to make a lot of gas dependent units.
That problem doesn't happen much with ZvP, because you are usually trading armies, but with ZvT, you will lose a lot more than Terran if you go for pure Roaches, and you just won't have enough gas for Infestors/Hive tech units.

Roaches are also two population, and you can get one per Larva, while lings are one population for two lings. All in all, lings can do amazing work, even though they aren't as tanky, but are really fast, have great damage, are really good for run-by's etc. But even pure lings are easily countered with bunch of Hellions, so that's the reason you see Roach/Ling mix. Roaches are tanks that soak up damage, while the lings dish it out. You charge with the Roaches first, then try to surround with the lings. That will result in more units, better spent resources and you will save some gas, since you won't focus on pumping Roaches as much.

I went a bit of topic here, but tbh, everything can work, I like to play Hydra/Roach/Ling vs. Terran, just to try something new. It all depends on positioning and how do you attack, I am pretty sure that Roach/Infestors can work, just they won't be as good as Roach/Ling/Infestors or Ling/Banes/Infestors.

If you think about it, you can play vs. Terran that way, you need to have great map control, you can't let Terran take portion of the map with Siege Tanks, in other words, you have to attack when he is unsieged. Tunneling Claws helps a lot there, since you can move underneath the Terran army, your Roaches will be in melee range, which favors you a lot, especially with Siege Tank splash and Fungal on top of that.
What you really shouldn't do, is staying too long with that unit composition. You should transition into Brood Lords/Infestor/Roaches as soon as possible, because as I said you will probably lose a lot more units than Terran will.
So, try to not be aggressive, try to play safe, control the map, have spread overlords, and attack Terran when he goes for a push across the map. Don't even try to attack his Siege Tank line.
Also, spread Roaches across your bases, 3-4 everywhere, it will be hard for Terran to drop, since Medivac can't really outheal the Roaches damage like he can do with Zerglings, that is where Roaches shine vs. Marines, in low numbers.

Sorry for the long response and huge wall of text, just my opinion on the whole thing, but I am sure that there are a lot of better players here than me that are just too lazy. :P

And btw, watch Nerchio's replays vs. Terran players, he usually goes for mass Roaches with lings and Infestors. Even though it isn't exactly the same, it should give you hints on how to play this strategy.
GL&HF ^^
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#3 homesmasher

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:22 AM

#1 in ur first column u say roaches have the worst dps, and high hp much like protoss untis THEREFOR they are good ZvP with infestor? that doesn't really make much sense to me, im not arguing they're not good, but that logic is just flawed.


Also you dont really see roaches "tank" for lings at higher levels, people just focus fire.
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#4 RamiZ

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 05:32 PM

Yes, I shouldn't say Roaches/Infestors, just Roaches, but anyway, I don't see why that logic is flawed? Unlike vs. Terran, Roaches are really cost-effective vs. Protoss because they feel like Protoss units, except that they are a lot cheaper. Protoss units don't have high dps(well, most of them don't), and they can't kill Roaches fast enough, which results in trading armies. Especially if you have fungal to support, so that you can catch fleeing army, or prevent Stalkers from blinking.

Also, you don't really see Roaches "tank" for lings when Idra plays, all other Zerg players usually send Roaches first, especially when they are attacking the Siege Tank line.
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#5 homesmasher

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:48 PM

The idea of having units like ur enemy makes them better doesn't make any sense, why would it be like this?
Should every player of every race strive to make most alike units by your measures?

Why wouldn't u want high-hp units against people with high-dps? o0 it would still percentage-wise slow the killing at about the same (except if ur doing shot-count math ofc, but then u goto measure average-efficient-shots to)


What if i just say "protoss units have high hp and low dps, therefor zerglings are good because they kill faster, and protoss units have high hp so u need more dps" its the same logic just applied in a different way... so either your logic says nothing at all because it can be applied all around or it is flawed.

As for the Idra part, i do not see how he is related, but good terran players spread their tanks out, meaning unless ur microing ur lings to stay behind your roaches all the time (which would be rly in-efficient due to other reasons such as dmg) they arent tanking much but the first 2-4 tanks of the line. (Which means they'll still not save ur banes which u will DEFINETLY need or infestors)
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#6 RamiZ

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 10:26 PM

I've never said that it makes them better if they are just "alike" other units, but that in combination with cost-per-cost makes them really good against Protoss. Behind "high hp-low dps" logic stand numbers and facts. Yes, you want to have as much hp as you can get vs. high dps units, but they are not just there to Tank, they have to deal reasonable damage for them to be effective.

As I said, Roaches have great focus power, they have 16 damage vs. all types of units which is awesome, but they attack every two seconds, which is god damn awful. They don't work good vs. high numbers of low-hp-high-dps units because they overlap their damage a lot. You need 3 Roaches to kill a Marine, but in straight battle sometimes 5 of them will attack the same target, which results in huge damage loss, and while they try to attack second time, half of them will be dead, because even if they have high hp, they can't tank Marines with stim, in other words, their HP doesn't make it up for the loss of DPS. My friend and I were doing some tests, and 30 non-upgraded Marines kills 15 Roaches with 17 Marines left... and that was when both of us engaged in melee range, so all of the units could attack.

Now, if you take a look at Stalkers and Zealots, they are a lot closer to Roaches stat-wise than to Marines and Marauders. I would say that they are equal in equal numbers, but Roaches are a lot cheaper than Stalkers, and they can kite Zealots, which is why they are good against Protoss and awful against Terran. No matter how cheap they are, Marines are cheaper in every way, and destroys Roaches, while Protoss units are equal, but Roaches are a lot cheaper than them, and you will outproduce him in a long run. I don't know how it doesn't make sense to you, it can't get simpler than that.

About the Idra part, I just mentioned him because Idra showed close to no micro in games I've watched. There are some games that I've watched where I would say: "Wow, the Idra actually has good micro!?" but he micros like that every 20th game...
And still, even if it is just few Siege Tank shots(if you don't spread your Roaches of course), it still helps a lot to get your Zerglings to his army, where they can actually do damage and where his Siege Tank will splash his own units a lot. If you ask me, that is a lot better than having 70% of Zerglings army die before they engage the enemy.
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#7 Jeezus

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 02:22 PM

just saying roaches are awful vs terran is pretty bold and unsupportive statement. nowadays where there is a lot of hellion play and late game transition to ghost and thors. how can u say that? roaches are must against those compostions
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#8 RamiZ

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 02:38 PM

#6 I am talking about bio, and I don't know where do you see transition into Thors and Ghosts from Hellions. Terran players that scout and see that you are making Roaches won't mass Hellions and won't go for Thors or Ghosts, they will probably get a lot of Siege Tanks with Marines and Marauders and go for early/mid game push.

Roaches are great vs. Mech, they are the basic units to counter that unit composition, you can't do it without them, but majority of Terran players go for Bio with Tanks and few Hellions for harassment and Roaches really don't shine there.
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#9 homesmasher

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 12:57 AM

@Ramiz i dont think you understnad the basic logistics of damage&HP.(where'as im adding armor to the HP part in this statement)
If you ignore logistics (walking-skirting-overshooting) Having +1 HP or +1DMG (or +100 of each for that matter) doesn't really matter, as long as it matches- which in turn makes your statement completely nonsense.
(simple map and logic is all that is required to see this)


Now that that's said i myself think roaches are awesome ZvT, mainly cus they can do something zerglings cant (but this has NOTHING to do with high-hp or high-dmg) but this has to do with some simple things:
-Forcefield becomes less efficient vs ranged
-You can focus fire main aoe's better with ranged (where'as focusing collosus with zergling is more or less impossible due to logistics.
-You can kite zealots vs zealot/stalker combos
-They're an easier "massable unit" meaning you'll need less larvae etc to make an ok mid-game army of roaches then you would of lings (this MAY punnish youl lategame ofc but in this setting that is irrellevant)---This also means they're an easier unit to remax with in trading scenarios and the unit leaves more room for error vs gateway timings.

this has NOTHING to do with hp contra dmg weight balance on the unit tho.
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#10 RamiZ

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 11:15 AM

Dude, you are completely ignoring half of the stuff I said, or you have bad reading comprehension.

First of all, you are right, Roaches can kite Zealots, and can kill Colossus in 1 out of 10 cases when you are not blocked by Zealots/Stalkers/Forcefields etc..
But that is not the point, I was simply explaining why Roach as tier 1 unit army is better against Protoss than against Terran tier 1 unit army.

i dont think you understnad the basic logistics of damage&HP.(where'as im adding armor to the HP part in this statement)
If you ignore logistics (walking-skirting-overshooting) Having +1 HP or +1DMG (or +100 of each for that matter) doesn't really matter, as long as it matches- which in turn makes your statement completely nonsense.
(simple map and logic is all that is required to see this)

Please, prove it to me, just in case I didn't understand you, because to me this is nonsense.

Now that that's said i myself think roaches are awesome ZvT, mainly cus they can do something zerglings cant (but this has NOTHING to do with high-hp or high-dmg)

I think that Roaches are awesome ZvT too vs. Mech play, I want to see you winning Bio play with Roaches, please.

I don't know if you are lazy to read, or don't want to read or whatever, but I am talking about TERRAN's BIO PLAY vs. ROACHES. How it doesn't have to do anything with Hit Points and Dps? Of course there are other factors, but try changing stats, and then tell me it would be the same.

They're an easier "massable unit" meaning you'll need less larvae etc to make an ok mid-game army of roaches then you would of lings (this MAY punnish youl lategame ofc but in this setting that is irrellevant)---This also means they're an easier unit to remax with in trading scenarios and the unit leaves more room for error vs gateway timings.

Exactly, but one of the factors that makes this so great is that they are really cheap, which is what I've said in previous posts. And still, that is what I've explained already, this works only versus Protoss, because vs. Terran player, you won't trade armies, Terran will eat you alive, without major losses.
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