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TvP:I've reached the end of my patience.

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#1 PsychoBaBas

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 01:17 AM

OK GG.net you got to help me.

Mid-Masters Terran here.

Since September I have been playing TvP non-stop. Maybe the occasional tvz tvt every 25 games or so.

I can not for the life of me get a winratio of anything over 20-25% vs Master Protoss and can easily lose to a diamond. I will even admit without shame (I lie) that even platinum have beaten me. If it matters, my TvZ and TvT are high Masters level, meaning I can have a decent game vs those kind of players, win and lose. So as you can imagine, I'm getting just a bit pissed off on how trash I am vs protoss.

What I have tried in the past 4 months:

Standard bio with viking ghosts: My only wins are if I get a well timed push off 2 base around the 10 minute mark. I dont really lose to cheese easily, but late game is almost autogg simply due to ridiculous dps and the chargelots. I do not have the multitasking necessary to arrange army, stutter step, ghost-emp and viking position all at the same time. It's becoming a massive problem.
I realise that this is the most accepted way of playing TvP and have pushed myself to the limit playing this style with a large amount of openings [1 rax Fast exp, 2 rax pressure into fast exp, banshee opening into bio (roxKIS.Happy style)]. Some are slightly better than others, but nothing to write home about.

SkyTerran: An interesting option. But Masters Protoss laugh at it with phoenix and blinkstalker counters. It isnt a viable strat imo.

Bio with blue flame for the chargelots: Fail after the damage nerf.

Bio with tanks: tanks are trash vs protoss. Chargelots and immortals absorb insane damage.

Bio with thors: Not as godawful as bio with tanks but extremely vulnerable until you get a decent amount of Thors. Upgrades dont scale well at all. Colossus micro wrecks this, meaning, fire and retreat, rinse and repeat.

Bio with banshees: Like Jinro did a few months back. Basically swap the viking for the banshees. Not viable as if the techlabed starports get scouted, you're in trouble.

Pure mech: Doesnt work. On large maps this is quite possibly the worst a terran can do. Hellion nerf killed mech completely.

Debos reactor barracks with factory marine hellion allin: Get cheap wins at the 6minute mark. If he safe expands or 1 base you're in trouble. I dont like getting the few wins that I do with this.

So as you can see the 1/1/1 is missing from my builds as i hate allining. But, there is little option for me.

I'm looking for ideas. I'm looking for innovations. I'm looking for a good build. I have yet to try the Jjakji thor marine banshee, perhaps it will give me a fighting chance.
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#2 rrhinoe

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 01:35 PM

2011-12-20 01:17, PsychoBaBas wrote:
OK GG.net you got to help me.

Mid-Masters Terran here.

Since September I have been playing TvP non-stop. Maybe the occasional tvz tvt every 25 games or so.

I can not for the life of me get a winratio of anything over 20-25% vs Master Protoss and can easily lose to a diamond. I will even admit without shame (I lie) that even platinum have beaten me. If it matters, my TvZ and TvT are high Masters level, meaning I can have a decent game vs those kind of players, win and lose. So as you can imagine, I'm getting just a bit pissed off on how trash I am vs protoss.

Spoiler
.


I was just thinking that maybe it is not some new build order you need but selfconfidence. You're shamed for a reason and losing freaking platinum guy feel's like the game shit and match up broken. But those are just feelings.

I played as Z last season but tried to change for Terran in late season. I ofc lost a lot and when this season (4) started, i got dropped to diamond for a lil while. And really i never have had problems as a zerg. I've been in master league since first season :D

So starting season 4 again as diamond player and playing with my main race as Zerg, i first though this would be easy. But then i started losing every protoss for a 2 weeks :D... i had somegames against platinum guys as well, which really was shamefull. Anyway.. i got over it and in the middle of the season -> back to master. Now i dont have problems beating master protoss guys. My winrate against toss is propably 60/40

What changed? My build orders did not really "develope" dramatically. It was just all about how i realize build orders in the game. And that has a lot of to do with selfconfidence.

Maybe getting back into shape was more like playing more 2on2's with friends and trying to get selfconfidence and focuse back into the game.

I just cannot believe you are at same level than few platinum protoss guys :DDD.. you're master T. That is impossible (sorry platinum players). Even with shitty build order you should beat platinum's so it's not about build orders :). Get Protoss-friends to train with and dont mind losing :). Try to get out of your autopilot mode!

I hope you get over your aiurphobia ;)
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#3 PsychoBaBas

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 02:39 PM

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, you are right that confidence in the match has a lot to do with it.
But here is the thing with TvP the way I see it, from an overall view.

It's a terribly unforgiving matchup. You cannot assume the Protoss is doing anything. Ever. Terran has to be completely at the top of his scouting game to know exactly what is going on. Or else he is at a serious disadvantage. Yes, a Terran can scan, but it does not guarantee you will see what you need to see. Some examples:

1. Protoss goes fast expand. You assume he is gradually teching as most protoss to. He goes 6-7 gate, with hidden gates in some corner, you die.

2. Protoss builds 1-2 colossus, immediately switches to charge lot/ archon with eventual storm. Your army composition is most likely alot of marauders to tank the colossus dmg, a few marines, + viking, which you can never know for sure when to stop making. Marauders and vikings stand almost 0 chance vs zealot archon ht. Extremely cost inefficient for a maruader to go up against a zealot. You are then frantically pumping marines from techlab-barracks and frantically throwing down barracks with reactors which take an eternity to finish (i believe 50 seconds?)

Protoss can use up all resources. Excess gas goes to high templars and archons, minerals go to zealots. Terran can not spend the extra gas on anything. In many cases Terran doesnt even need more gas to support its bio, as it kind of "stuck" with playing bio. And naturally he doesnt have any late tech options.

I dont want to go into more specifics like macro and micro as they have been discussed plenty of times, but thats what I see being very problematic with the matchup from a overall point of view.

I dont mind losing, as long as I can sit there in the Defeat screen and realise what went wrong with the game, and try to improve it in the next game. But when I see a Protoss never even attacking the whole game and completely roll me with tier 3 AoE protoss units, while I spam emp and get my bio wrecked in 5 seconds... I dont know man...


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#4 ghost_sniper

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 04:22 PM

well i had the same problem that you like 6 months ago , now my tvp is my best mu maybe,
this is what i do
i start with depot, barrack, depot then make a comand center
i scout protoss if he only has 1 gas it means he will fe
you have 2 options:
1)make 2 gas---> 2 racks(3 in toltal) ------> factory -----> starport---> 2 racks(5 in total) make 2 medivacs , with that medivacs drop on his main then with the rest of your army try to snipe his expo.

2) after your second comand center make a hidden 3rd, then you will outmacro protoss ez.

ok now if he has 2 gas it means he will proxy stargate cheese you , or will try a drop so make 2 racks more before making the 2 gas and a lot of marines
you stop it and win ez,( you can make an engeniering bay )


what if he nexus first ?
depot, barrack, depot then make a comand center
then make 4 racks, a lot of marines and attack him try to snipe some probes

what if he make doble forge ?
then you will need to add some engeniering bay

what if he start with collosus, stalker centrys ?
add anothe starport never stop making medivacs vikings

what if he make really fasst charleot, archons, storm ?
make aghost academy with cloack and try to emp templars , archons

late game:

the key of this match up is that protoss army is really expensive, while marine marauder medic are cheap so if you keep droping at his expo you
will win for sure, remenber never stop making drops







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#5 homesmasher

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 08:17 PM

Bio with tanks is something i never made to work either, so i might agree on that 1 (some of ur strats are things i just dont do/play against, so i wont comment on those)

As for skyterran, i know a lot of mass-banshee strats that actually DO work, most of them has a weakness to early timing attacks, but to say its countered by phoenix-blink stalker is just wrong, then ur simly doing it wrong/staying to low base#

I still make my bio play work vs master tosses on a regular basis with win% far over 50 so i do not quite get that point.
YOU SAY that ur multitask isnt good enough, yet ur good enough for TvT TvZ, then i just goto assume ur TvZ TvT's are simple strat wins, and therefor u should base urself on strat wins for TvP to mby? (some cheeses here and there?)
The alternative is getting better drop/harass micro aka multitask.

I have seen a lot of terrans die to standard toss play lately, mainly because they're playing overly safe to the outburst of new toss strats, may this be ur problem?
For instance i found myself a while back getting my eng bay at same time as my 2nd command, just for the turrets, i realised this to be a RLY stupid move, as i couldnt possibly afford any upgrades at the time, and i really needed to start gassing for the tech rather then having some blind-dt counter build....
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#6 PsychoBaBas

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 09:59 PM

2011-12-20 20:17, homesmasher wrote:
Bio with tanks is something i never made to work either, so i might agree on that 1 (some of ur strats are things i just dont do/play against, so i wont comment on those)

As for skyterran, i know a lot of mass-banshee strats that actually DO work, most of them has a weakness to early timing attacks, but to say its countered by phoenix-blink stalker is just wrong, then ur simly doing it wrong/staying to low base#

I still make my bio play work vs master tosses on a regular basis with win% far over 50 so i do not quite get that point.
YOU SAY that ur multitask isnt good enough, yet ur good enough for TvT TvZ, then i just goto assume ur TvZ TvT's are simple strat wins, and therefor u should base urself on strat wins for TvP to mby? (some cheeses here and there?)
The alternative is getting better drop/harass micro aka multitask.

I have seen a lot of terrans die to standard toss play lately, mainly because they're playing overly safe to the outburst of new toss strats, may this be ur problem?
For instance i found myself a while back getting my eng bay at same time as my 2nd command, just for the turrets, i realised this to be a RLY stupid move, as i couldnt possibly afford any upgrades at the time, and i really needed to start gassing for the tech rather then having some blind-dt counter build....


Thanks but you assume wrong. I never cheese or rely on just a 1-2 base strat, in all 3 match ups. Perhaps its what I need to change in TvP, I dont know.

At the moment I'm sticking to 2 base drop timing as per ghost_snipers post. It's quite standard and safe so I'm liking it. Kind of funny when you see a Protoss fall to pieces because of a double medivac drop. But that late game TvP...
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#7 homesmasher

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 11:21 PM

2011-12-20 21:59, PsychoBaBas wrote:

2011-12-20 20:17, homesmasher wrote:
Bio with tanks is something i never made to work either, so i might agree on that 1 (some of ur strats are things i just dont do/play against, so i wont comment on those)

As for skyterran, i know a lot of mass-banshee strats that actually DO work, most of them has a weakness to early timing attacks, but to say its countered by phoenix-blink stalker is just wrong, then ur simly doing it wrong/staying to low base#

I still make my bio play work vs master tosses on a regular basis with win% far over 50 so i do not quite get that point.
YOU SAY that ur multitask isnt good enough, yet ur good enough for TvT TvZ, then i just goto assume ur TvZ TvT's are simple strat wins, and therefor u should base urself on strat wins for TvP to mby? (some cheeses here and there?)
The alternative is getting better drop/harass micro aka multitask.

I have seen a lot of terrans die to standard toss play lately, mainly because they're playing overly safe to the outburst of new toss strats, may this be ur problem?
For instance i found myself a while back getting my eng bay at same time as my 2nd command, just for the turrets, i realised this to be a RLY stupid move, as i couldnt possibly afford any upgrades at the time, and i really needed to start gassing for the tech rather then having some blind-dt counter build....


Thanks but you assume wrong. I never cheese or rely on just a 1-2 base strat, in all 3 match ups. Perhaps its what I need to change in TvP, I dont know.

At the moment I'm sticking to 2 base drop timing as per ghost_snipers post. It's quite standard and safe so I'm liking it. Kind of funny when you see a Protoss fall to pieces because of a double medivac drop. But that late game TvP...

Every1 must have their OWN way to go about it, so do not take this as any "do this"-thing

But personally i find any drop-timing play with bio quite bad for TvP at any ammount of base...
The reason being u sacc an fast expansion or u sacc military power (maybe even both!?!?)
The thing about bio is you HAVE TO HAVE MORE STUFF!
there is ways to neglect this it is either: take out all aoe before battle starts, OR remove all enemy shield to "balance" hp again
"dps-boosts" like banshees is also a way to re-balance the power of the bio build ofcourse, but personally i find that early game the easiest way to do it is to stay as low tier as possible and just spam stuff to FORCE ur opponent to stay slow&steady, thereby you can stay ahead in econ, thereby you can eventuelly get the tech later at a 3base situation and thereby you can use the previusly mentioned effects together with your now lead in econ.

Now im not saying drops isnt good, their actually the greatest thing ever for TvP in my oppinion, but i feel like doing it as a core strat puts you in a kindo risk/reward situation, while doing it as a "drop a marine for scout"/drop 4/8 stimRines for probe snipe"/"drop 4 rauders for pylon snipe" strat is a much safer and steadier way to go about it.

As i play it from both sides i can say that most tosses do NOT feel very well having to defend vs drops as they are moving out to expand to 3rd at same time, especially when ur opponent just has a huge blob of stuff, its just not safe... you do NOT know if ur opponent is trying to elevator ur base, or trying to stim snipe ur 3rd.. etc
This gives you an ample oppurtunity to fake 1 and halfway-do the other hardcore, you can even get small unit catches as you force them to go back and forth.

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#8 PsychoBaBas

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 01:08 AM


Some good points there. I suppose my tactics are flawed bigtime.

I'm very influenced by Brood War, in the sense that I feel that I MUST macro up, with light pressure. If I macro better than him, I will win. And it is certainly not the case in TvP, especially as its very hard to hold ground vs Protoss, unlike TvZ and TvT.

Today I've had some good success from just not rushing to get that 3rd as quickly as I did, and keep piling the pressure. Drewbie's guide is quite useful too

http://www.complexit...read.php?t=4456

But like I said, I've been playing TvP for 4 months... I cant explain why I'm so pathetic at the MU lol.

As it stands I would say I win about 20% vs Masters, 50% vs Diamond and 90% vs Platinum which is just disgusting. In my other MUs I never lose to diamond in TvZ and I have to seriously fuck up to lose a TvT to anything other than a masters.

thanks.
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#9 NexCa

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 03:17 AM

awwww, PsychoBaBas ... :(
i really love your points during almost every post i read from you, but this makes me sad :(

On Topic :

Standard bio with viking ghosts: My only wins are if I get a well timed push off 2 base around the 10 minute mark. I dont really lose to cheese easily, but late game is almost autogg simply due to ridiculous dps and the chargelots. I do not have the multitasking necessary to arrange army, stutter step, ghost-emp and viking position all at the same time. It's becoming a massive problem.
I realise that this is the most accepted way of playing TvP and have pushed myself to the limit playing this style with a large amount of openings [1 rax Fast exp, 2 rax pressure into fast exp, banshee opening into bio (roxKIS.Happy style)]. Some are slightly better than others, but nothing to write home about.


I was last season rank 1 of my Division, high Master Protoss with 1,6 k points, i am trying to explain where i get problems against Terran, maybe that'll help you ! <3


You say you dont have the multitasking to do vikings positioning, ghosts emp, stutter step and and general your lack on micro, so i guess, if you concentrate too much on these things, your macro fails. I don't know your playstyle, or what do you prefer to play, but in IMO its ALWAYS the best solution to go for gasless expo or 2 rax pressure (so 1 rine, then reactor, tech lab on the 2nd one)

-ofc in a bo5 or smth like that, mix your strategy's

So, i get in huge trouble if Terran goes for REALLY fast upgrades and do that constantly during the game, no matter what, their DPS is just so freakn high.
So probably you could get that ebay a bit earlier (or probably dual grades ?)

1. Protoss goes fast expand. You assume he is gradually teching as most protoss to. He goes 6-7 gate, with hidden gates in some corner, you die.


Are you serious ? I never win with this shit ( especially with 3 + bunkers and repair ), and imo a bit too risky to play all-in shit ...

2. Protoss builds 1-2 colossus, immediately switches to charge lot/ archon with eventual storm. Your army composition is most likely alot of marauders to tank the colossus dmg, a few marines, + viking, which you can never know for sure when to stop making. Marauders and vikings stand almost 0 chance vs zealot archon ht. Extremely cost inefficient for a maruader to go up against a zealot. You are then frantically pumping marines from techlab-barracks and frantically throwing down barracks with reactors which take an eternity to finish (i believe 50 seconds?)


Okay, so what i saw from better Terran players just raping me, they simply always get a Ghosts academy, no matter what !!!
I suggest that you build around 12~ish minute mark just the ghost academy, its not THAT expensive, and you dont even have to research the energy upgrade instantly, since a ghosts gets his 75 + energy to cast EMP, when moebius reactor isn't even finished.

Another point is, dont be afraid to drop, but be smart ! What i mean is simple, just drop around with your shuttle meanwhile macroing, but... BUT !!! dont loose your medivacs !!! (dunno, Terran is pretty easy to macro there <3 )

Conclusion :

- Upgrades are so damn good in this game !
- Try to be smart and just do slight harass if you fail macro wise
- In my honest opinion : AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALWAYS !!! get your academy around 12~ish Minute mark (i am not Pro, but thats what i saw from high lvl Terrans raping my ass :D)


Since you're from UK, you might train with me TvP if you want to ! :)

Good Luck anyways, and sorry if my english isn't that "clear" !

;)
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#10 ghost_sniper

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:23 AM

this match is hard for terran because while you are attacking with emp, vikings, mmm, etc. you also need to focus on your production while protoss just 1a storms and warping units over and over again.
just try to outmacro protoss with hidden expos , timing attacks,1-1-1.

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