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Why SC2 Zerg Macro is broken

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#1 craftmatic2

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 06:31 PM

1) Zergling and Roach are broken to begin with.

2) The hatchery is better in SC2 to begin with, simply because there are more options on T1 and T2.

3) Queen is too cost effective and saves too much money compared to BW zerg macro.


Cost of 3 base Zerg in BW, assuming 6 hatcheries total (you start with one):

Hatcheries: 5 * 300 + 5 drones

Extractors: 3 * 50 + 3 drones

Total: 1650 + 8 drones


SC2 cost of 3 bases:

hatcheries 2 * 300 + 2 drones

Queens: 3 * 150

Extractors: 6 * 25 + 6 drones

Total: 1200 + 8 drones


The Zerg got enough "free" money through savings to either make a THIRD expand WITH a 4th queen, OR make 6 Extra Roaches (compared to what would have been zero hydralisks in BW at this stage of the game.)


Not only that, but the Roaches are twice as much hp per cost, and 3 times as much damage per cost vs tier 1, and 1.6 times as much damage vs tier 1.5 and tier 2, since hydras did half damage vs small...

Thus, either way, the SC2 Zerg gets his 3 bases, and then has the choice of a "free" 4th base, or 6 extra Roaches on top of the Roaches he's already making anyway.

Therefore, the Zerg's Ground vs Ground early and middle game is basicly over 3 times as powerful as in Broodwar, by the time you adjust for the economy being 1/3rd cheaper at the time of 3 bases, and the unit stats being twice or three times better around the same point in the game.

Meanwhile, the P t1 and t2 units are strictly inferior to the BW t1 and t2 units, and Chrono Boost is only around 1/4th as good as the queen Spawn Larva ability, really not even that good. Since most Zerg stuff costs half to 2/3rds the build time of protoss stuff anyway, it's really only about 1/8th as good, and you can't mass Nexi. The Zerg can mass queens and still have a respectable defense, which is ridiculous.


4)

They even made the Zealot weaker vs Zerglings, or rather, made the Zergling attack speed twice as fast relative to protoss units.

In BW, 4 zerglings beat 1 Zealot, usually with one Zergling remaining alive.

In SC2, 4 Zerglings beat 1 Zealot, with TWO zerglings, sometimes even THREE Zerglings remaining alive...effectively making them two or three times better in terms of attrition, even though their "stats" show the same thing...

In resources lost, it would typically be 75 vs 100 in favor of the Zerg in BW.

In SC2 resources lost, it is 25 or 50 vs 100, in favor of the Zerg, and that's at Tier 1 vs Tier 1.

When the Zerg gets the Roaches, well...yeah...

But actually, the Zerglings relative attack speed vs Zealot attack speed is around twice what it was in Broodwar. So even though they show the same "stats" as in Broodwar for damage and HP, the Zerglings are actually twice as good as broodwar Zerglings.

You would need to have used Arsenal and done some modding in SC and Broodwar to know this, because they didn't actually post unit attack speeds in-game in SC and Broodwar, but it's definitely true.


Basicly, the early game is completely rigged in favor of the Zerg, with the exception of some broken maps like Lost Temple, which was removed from the map pool...
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#2 RamiZ

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 07:32 PM

So, you actually ignored my whole post in other thread and still keep comparing these two games. Good job.

But actually, the Zerglings relative attack speed vs Zealot attack speed is around twice what it was in Broodwar. So even though they show the same "stats" as in Broodwar for damage and HP, the Zerglings are actually twice as good as broodwar Zerglings.

Bahahaha... oh man, I am now pretty sure that you are clueless. Zerglings in SC2 are nowhere good as Zerglings in SC BW. In SC BW lings were one of the best dps units in the game, where in SC2 they are ok, but mostly are used to soak damage so the Banelings can actually hit. And there are units like Hellions that make Zerglings completely useless in any engagement.

Any pro player can tell you that Zerglings in SC2 are poor when compared to SC BW Lings.
Also, if you are comparing 4 lings vs. 1 Zealots fight, you failed to realize that Zealots have 10 less shield points than Zealots in SC BW, and that shield regenerate only out of combat in SC2.
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#3 cricket

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 09:09 PM

You are right about this "Basicly, the early game is completely rigged in favor of the Zerg". Unfortunately almost everything else is irrelevant. These are two completely different games so trying to compare them and how they favor is not worth the time. Does zerg has an advantage early game, for about the first 5 minutes yes...

[/b]BUT!!!!! Terrans catch up with mules, Protoss catches up with Chrono Boosts

[/b][/b]SO... from there, everything else doesn't matter. +1 zealot 2 shots lings, early sentries deny ling damage. Early bunker pressure from terran denies early zerg advantage. This list goes on for days. Are there things broken in SC2, of course! It has only been around for a year. But, the things are you suggesting in this post is more of a rant and a rage with a few numbers in it. I do not believe this to be correct.
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#4 craftmatic2

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:13 PM

2011-11-19 22:09, cricket wrote:
You are right about this "Basicly, the early game is completely rigged in favor of the Zerg". Unfortunately almost everything else is irrelevant. These are two completely different games so trying to compare them and how they favor is not worth the time. Does zerg has an advantage early game, for about the first 5 minutes yes...

[/b]BUT!!!!! Terrans catch up with mules, Protoss catches up with Chrono Boosts


No they don't, not even in top replays. Look at the stuff in the archives.

I'll skip the wall of text, and link to some recent replays.

Point is, neither Chrono Boost nor call downs are anywhere near as good "in game" as the Queen is...

[url]http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/52488[/url]

First 5 to 10 minutes, high speed, set the tab to "Income" and watch.

Zerg is so far ahead in both resources, but especially gas, that it's ridiculous.

Check spending at 10 minutes: He has spent 1200 more resources, and is mining gas twice as fast, and minerals 20% faster AND he has more un-spent money on both resources cached...AND he is ahead by 38 supply...AND the Terran has already lost 2.5 times as much in resources lost...

Overall, the Zerg is ahead by roughly 3000 net resources at exactly the 10 minute mark, and has as stated, twice the gas income and 120% the minerals income as the Terran...

At exactly 15 minutes, the Zerg is 5000 ahead in spending, 2800 ahead in resources lost, and DOUBLE the gas income, and 150% the minerals income of the Terran.


Not only did the Terran not catch up in those 5 minutes, in spite of some heroic harrass attempts which were even succesfful largely...ahem, yet, the Zerg pulled ahead by leaps and bounds in those 5 minutes for EVERY dimension of the game, especially economy...The Zerg is still ahead by 34 in max supply, and is still ahead by 50 in standing army supply.

In short, the game is already over at the 10 minute mark, and definitely at the 15 minute mark.

[url]http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/52035[/url]

Huk somehow wins this (sorry spoiler), primarily off probably the best micro anyone's ever seen, but watch resources...

10 minutes:

They are roughly tied in income, with a slight advantage to the Zerg, but the Zerg has already gotten 1000 ahead in total income, which can be seen in Spending.

12 minutes:

In just 2 minutes, he has accelerated his income by 900 minerals per minute, and is 50% faster in gas income. He is 3000 ahead in spending, but about 500 behind in money cached, making him around 2500 resources ahead. He is ahead by 24 max food and 30 standing army

15 minutes:
Zerg is still ahead by 25% in minerals income, and 50% in gas income.

He is ahead by 3200 in spending, but his bank is also 500 bigger, meaning he gained an additional 1200 resources advantage between 12 and 15 minutes.

He is ahead by 44 in max food, and ahead by 64 in standing army.

He is ahead by 500 in Resources Lost.


It's actually the Zerg's game to lose, which he eventually does.


Thankfully for Huk, and no offense to him, but Macro is the only skill the zerg player has.

He's pathetic at tactics and strategy.

Huk out plays him 2 to one in micro, tactics, and strategy, but he HAD TO in order to stay alive and win, because the damn economy and macro is so rigged in favor of the Zerg.

20 minutes

Zerg is ahead by 8000 in spending, which is what? 40 mutalisks or 80 Roaches worth of resources, Jesus, that's practically a free win, but he somehow manages to blow this game...


AND let's not forget, that because the Z has centralized production, (which the queens double up not just the economy production, but the military production efficiency as well,) they don't require redundant tech facilities, so 5500 of the Z's 8000 advantage in spending is army.

So that really is 27 mutalisks or 55 Roaches worth of money that the Zerg player is ahead by: Two and a half pages worth of control groups of Roaches is how much extra money he has mined and spent by then.

It's actually pathetic and a disgrace that he goes on to lose the game...


Unfortunately for him, Macro is the only skill he seems to have, because he gets his vastly SUPERIOR army murdered over and over again starting from 15 forward, as Huk beats him in every other dimension of the game over and over and eventually depletes him...

This is an extreme exception, as most people cannot micro and multi-task anywhere nearly as good as Huk, but I figure if he'd been a hair less good at micro, the Z would just attack-move FTW...


yeah, you can beat this, if you're ridiculously good and ridiculously lucky...and your opponent just makes all in suicide attack-moves like this guy did....
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#5 cricket

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 03:21 AM

A zerg will ALWAYS mine more gas than another race because they require it more than any other. Watch any top caster and you will hear them talk about how it is not the mineral income but the gas income that matters to a zerg. Since they will always mine more than another race, their total income will reflect that. They will always beat out a terran in gas BECAUSE THEY DON'T NEED IT. Unless they are going straight mech, all other compositions are mineral heavy (hints why mules are amazing). Any heck, late game, kill all your scvs and just use mules so that your army can be 75 supply higher than your opponent. That is fair right? Also, only Nestea and Idra don't miss injects which means everyone else doesn't benefit from it. If you forget to call down a mule. No worries, I'll call down 2 at once.

[/b]If I'm protoss, no worries if I missed a crono boost. I'll use 2 or 3 on different buildings. They don't get penalized for missing them or having pour mechanics like zerg does.

[/b][/b] Watch a pro game where a protoss Forge Fast Expands. A zerg is lucky if they can keep up in harvester count due to chrono boost so you can't just say it doesn't equal it. Plenty of replays say that it can.

[/b][/b] The main point is they have to have a higher economy in beginning because their hatchery is also their barracks. If they don't have more larva then they have smaller army then their opponent. That is why many strategies will punish a zerg that goes to heavy in their economy. They take a huge risk and can be rewarded for it. I've seen a terran get 3 orbitals really quick, bunker up there front and easily beat a zerg in economy.

[/b][/b] If it is as broken as you say, then why aren't zergs winning all the time? Nestea and Idra never miss injects and get stomped by protoss all day long. So wait... If they aren't winning while doing all the correct things, then is it broken or are their more components to argument than larva and injects?
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#6 ChiXoo

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 11:31 AM

if u let the zerg macroing its impossible to stop him...

i think zerg have the strongest one

dont cry ;)
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#7 Artunit

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 06:26 PM

#5 Instead of saying " dont cry ; ) " why don't you try to have a constructive post?
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#8 chrisec

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 02:10 AM

dont know if serious or just very stupid

but in case u are serious:

dont compare WOL with BW

Spoiler

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#9 hyouro

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 10:41 AM

What about mules then?

What do you think about those Craftmatic?

IMO that's a really really strong mechanic.
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#10 WildTZ

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 05:38 AM

2011-11-20 00:13, craftmatic2 wrote:

I'll skip the wall of text


Whatever happened to taht?
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