PvP - 2 problems of a newbie
Posted 11 June 2007 - 11:21 PM
1) My opponent is making heavy camping -> by the entrance of his base makes at first 3-4 cannons supported later with goons, so any land attack is impossible as well as a rush with zealots at the beginning. With resources he saved in the beginning he goes fast for dark templars, forcing me to concetrate on deffense. By the time he makes first and second expo, again well cannon-defended. And here we go - mass carriers. Usually I can catch it so I have same amount of expos and then mad massing starports, but I don't like the way how almost every our PvP game ends -> Me winning because of corsair support or/and better upgrades for those 20 carriers.
2) How to react when u see 2-3 his probes making lamish cannon rush in your base in the very beginning?
Posted 12 June 2007 - 03:34 AM
If your opponent does some crazy build, make a crazy build as well Go FE. Or contain him around his cannons. robotic is good too, put canons on cliff
behind his exp (if possible). Don't let him expo easily - you can make 1-2 dt as well and prevent his probe from doin exp and canons i.e.. Make ground army goons + templars, some arbiter and stasis + storm his carriers, you don't have to go straigh for carriers as well, even though it depends on map too.
2) use your 2-3 probes to stop him maybe Again, it depends on map, if 2 position only, his chances are increased to suceed so you can do some early scout your base before you send probe to scout? Build pylon at position so you always see incoming probe - that won't be fast enough proly on 2 position map tho - you can scout or... you can make some crazy rush as well, hm?
Posted 12 June 2007 - 08:43 AM
If he makes cannons on his main (up on a cliff maybe) and dont fast expand then expect reaver drop or dark templars.
Then you can make 2 cannons around your nexus and put your goons around your base so a drop be very difficult. Leave 1 goon or probe in front of his base so you see if he is expanding or attacking. Then expand and continue your game... Dont forget to watch ALL of the expos with observers (put them on patrol not 1 for expo).
If he is going for carriers (witch never hapend to me) he will probably put some cannons on his natural and fast expand so he has gas. And then he will search a way to expand on a island or somewhere hidden. This expand YOU WANT TO STOP. Dont let him take another gas. When you start making observers sneak one in his base and even if he dies you can see if he is going Carriers. Until then just make goons some lots and HTs. When you see that he is making carriers and they are not done or only 2 or 3 are and if you think you can kill him now do it. Now that you know what is coming you can prepare:
1.Start watching ALL the expos (if you haven't already)- and dont let him take any. He wont have any ground force to beat you and his carriers are still not ready. If he sends a few carriers to save his expo just kill them with goons (not the interseptors ). And you try to expand as much as you can (keep away from places witch are easy to attack from carriers where he can hide them and your ground forces cant reach him.
2.Make 5-6 HTs with Storm (if you haven't already)
3.Make few dark archons with mindcontrol.
4.Also helpful would be arbiters and freeze his carrier
With your arbiters + recall you can play him
When he attacks one of your expos you go there and freeze all of his carriers (if they are in a big group it is even easier) and then recall your army in his base and he is probably dead.
5.Remember that carriers are slow, big and cost a lot. If he is not careful with them and loses them often this will kill his economy (unless he got the map and endless resourses - but you wont lest him do that) Dont always fight the carriers sometimes is better to attack him and he will just backout or he will die
Use your imagination and know that 2. 3. and 4. are very GAS hungry so you must expand.
2) This is easy
When you go with your probe in his base - when you find him and you see a forge or to little buildings know that there is something fishy going on. Search asap your base for probe or cannons, and if there aren't any then search the map for hidden pilon and probe trying to go for DT or Reaver.
If he is making cannons you must kill them know if you can, of attack his main and kill his nexus. You must decide witch to do that depends on the game.
If he is cannoned your entrance (you are blind man - but it hapends )
go for reavers and shuttle make him a drop and you can also expand somewhere with the shuttle.
Posted 12 June 2007 - 11:17 AM
1) You advice me storms + mind control - well, i think it's lfor little more skilled player than I am BUT, usage this strategy also makes impossible a fact, that we are playing LT (i know it's noobish ) so it means loss of those two islands when he has about 6 carriers and me only ground army and the cliffs make killing carriers with storms harder...
But i like the idea of arbiters, freeze+recall, that's sexy just I'm not sure if i can build several arbiters with high ground army soon enough before he builds his goddamn carriers..
2) Hm, when my opponent is lucky and has his base next to me, he creates his first pylon and forge in my base. When my gateway is finished, his forge is finished as well (or I'm not sure, which of these buildings takes longer time to build) so before first zealot, he has already first cannon and is building next. When this is done, i think the game is already over, his first 2-3 cannons
don't shoot at me, but the next yes, and at this time I can't make enough zealots destroy it, neither is possible to start building forge and then cannons because it's simply late.
So my idea is - when i see him building a hidden pylon in my base and i know he probably goes for cannon rush, I build forge + about 2 cannons close to my nexus and in the mean time with my scouting probe pylon + some gateways next to his base. So when he realizes he has 10 cannons in my base, but can't can't build any more cannons which would treat me (because of those 2-3 of mine) and group of zealots killing his probes in his main, he will have to quit the game. Could work, or not?
Posted 12 June 2007 - 12:03 PM
"when my opponent is lucky and has his base next to me ..."
what kind of lame ass maps do you play that have bases close to each other? Play normal maps that have a "standard" base distance from each other.
if he is cannon rushing you, your forge won't finish in time to fend off his cannons, won't work
if he is cannon rushing you, and you zealot rush him, and kill probes in his main, he doesn't have to quit the game. You have no method of killing the rest of his buildings.
"when I see him building a hidden pylon in my base ..."
if it's hidden, you won' see it.
my best advice vs cannon rush is zealot defence. If he is cannon rushing, then his will be much slower than yours. Furthermore, if he's building so many buildings in your base, then he won't have much at home. So, use zealot to kill cannon, or if he spams cannons, kill the pylons. Use probes to help. then, go to his base, he'll probably have to cannon up at home to stop you from killing him there. Then, expand.
Posted 12 June 2007 - 10:39 PM
Well, we are playing LT.
Zealot defense? No way, as I wrote, when I have my first zealot, he already has one cannon completed and next 2 in progress. Then little bit in front of his cannons he builds another pylon and next cannons shooting at my gateway(s). With amount of zealots I have I simply can't defend it. And how many zealots would you need if you have 2 lines of cannons, three in each? A lot I think.
I'm not sure if you understood that thing with my 2-3 cannons. If i have them right opposite to his cannons (I mean the first line) he can't build any cannons which would attacked my nexus or mineral line. Actually he always starts building his first pylon,forge and first cannons in my entrance so it takes him at least 3 pylons (or cannon lines) to get close enough to threaten my nexus. With my 3 cannons next to nexus he simply isn't able to build that final line of cannons, because my cannons make it impossible. So my economy doesn't suffer any damages, and i can build whatever i want to destroy his last cannons (after destroying his nexus and probes with those gateways i made with my scouting probe close to his base, as described in previous post).
That's the only possible way i see, or maybe killing his probe, but if he is there with 2 later on, it's quite hard just with probes (once he makes forge it's over and as i wrote, i don't have zealot before first cannon).
Posted 12 June 2007 - 11:48 PM
why are your zealots so late that he has one cannon COMPLETE by the time he walks out the door? the only time when cannons are fast enough to kill me are if they're doing a korhol cannon rush, which uses 2 pylons behind the mineral line to block off the units that are trying to kill the cannon. you should be able to get a zealot out before a cannon completes, or else you have bigger problems than just being owned by cannons.
lets assume that your cannon defence against cannon rush works. what do you do after that? ... you have just wasted minerals on defence, while his cannons are located strategically to contain you. How exactly do you propose to break the cannon siege? zealots, dragoons or reavers? ... with your first gate as late as it'll be (considering you have to cannon up your base), your zealots will be late, core will be late ... and whether or not you can build an assimilator will be in jeapordy. Meanwhile, he can expand as he likes, or mass up fighting troops, it's all the same.
you think your proxi gates will hurt him? ... if you think 2 cannons at YOUR base are hard to handle, how about 2 cannons at HIS base, combined with ALL of his probes?
CONCLUSION: 8 pylon 9 gate. If you can't pull that off with the correct timing, I suggest you invest in Warcraft 3.
Posted 13 June 2007 - 12:42 AM
If you want to attack his pylon, he will do other pylon in the same position and you will no have chance to kill the cannon. Do this:
You know how to do probe jump in mineral?
Send a probe very close to the mineral and other to get mineral, select the probe wich is nearly the mineral and start to click in the other side of the mineral, the probe will stack or jump the mineral and go to the other side, try to kill the other probe, to the jump with other probe and kill his probe, 2 probes against 1 probe will be fine the 100% of the cases. Dont do the lame doing a zealot rush because he can make some cannons in his base and kill your zealots easly. Dont do a forge because he will kill all your probes before you the cannon.
In the case wich a man closes his base and do fast expansion. Well... you can rush him and kill some probes with 1 or 2 zealtos and later, go to fast expansion without cannons, do only 1 cannon to dark templars and mass units, close his exit with your units, you will have allways more than him because you have not done any cannon and try to kill his probes with ht drop or reaver. BTW reaver has more rangue than a cannon. EASY WIN
***EDIT: OMFG is he saying that he cant beat a man who does some cannons in his main?
Man... when someone start to build in your main a pylon, get 10 probes and go to kill his pylon in your main, and his cannon in your main, dont let you to do NOTHING in your main. And use 8 pylon 9-10 gate and you will have in time a zealot, i think that you dont have timming or your build order is simply a shit.
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