GosuGamers DotA | Thread: Dota Ventrilo "cheating strategy"

Membership

Forgot password?

Navigation

News

Replays

Forum

GosuBet

Rankings

Strategy

Blogs

GEST

Search

Forums \ DotA strategic forum \ Dota Ventrilo "cheating strategy"

1, 2

Information

blah278

Dota Ventrilo "cheating strategy" (7363 reads, 40 replies, 1 year ago)

Hi there.

I've been watching a few replays of "big games" recently and ... a question came to my mind :

Even if we "could" garantee 100% that no player from "pro" teams uses any maphacks during online official matches, there is still a threat that cannot be avoided :

Most EU/US big match are broadcasted live on wtv and garena tv (asian games aren't, usualy ...). Now, let's suppose "Team A" is playing "Team B". a friend of "Team A" join the waaaghTV live broadcast, and then join "Team A" Ventrilo server or even get a Skype connection going directly with them, in case both teams have to join some mandatory Ventrilo server with the referees or something.

Now ... of course he won't be able to feed them visual snapshot data, meaning it won't help you land an arrow with mirana for exemple BUT NONETHELESS, what is stopping this guy who is on waaaghtv and watching the same game LIVE with maybe 1 second delay, but without the fog of war, to announce everything the other team is generaly doing : in their woods, roshaning, where they have wards, where they are massing for a gank, etc ?

Can somebody who's actually an admin on some of those online tournaments answer me about that, because I find this very disturbing, very EASY to do, and HORRIBLY efficient and gamebreaking.

If there isn't some parameter that I don't know about and that will prevent this kind of "vocal maphack" to happen, I believe this completely discredite the whole concept of online tournaments. It's as simple as that.

Because if me, just by watching some "strange" replays of "big teams" recently, can come to randomly think of this, then make no mistake : you can be SURE that big players and team captains that spend 24/7 playing Dota seriously, and sometime for money, have thought about this WAY BEFORE ME.

If this is, indeed, true and possible, then LAN tournament games are the ONLY games that means anything, and all online tournaments with live or almost no delay broadcast are PURE USELESS SHIT (even much more than I already thought, anyway ...), at least from the angle of seriously determining the real winner between 2 given teams.

I believe a proper answer to this question is in order, and that's an euphemism ...

This post was edited by its author @ 1 year ago

Quote

1 year ago

In theory yes you could do this, but WTV has like 30 seconds of delay.. Wouldn't be that big a help tbh

Quote

1 year ago

Small stars represents one level - This user is on level 3

0tso

Yeah it's the same with GGTV theres a few seconds delay but yeah you can still abuse things like anti-warding. You just have to hope the ppl u play against has manners, same thing when u reload a save there is always the risk that someone loads the save to find out such things..

Quote

1 year ago

37927

And even if you counter that somehow, there is still those mates who can call you home and tell you where is everything. >.<

Quote

1 year ago

Small stars represents one level - This user is on level 2

-R3N3GADE

#2" You just have to hope the ppl u play against has manners"

well said because even wen u have a friend observing a game(which is usually the case wen referees for the games are selected) u can easily communicate everything widout delay...

but still it is a professional sport(well sort of) where ppl are honest as well as dishonest and cheating is still prevalent. I think we shud be able to devise ways to counter this...maybe dont let neone referee except well known community admins and telecast it at least in a 5 mins delay

Quote

1 year ago

InDe_eD

honesty and ethics.

Quote

1 year ago

InDe_eD

(the same reason why tiger woods doesn't cheat)

..

Quote

1 year ago

Azuma

The easiest thing to do would be to put a 6 min delay on WTV/GGTV.
Don't know if that's really necessary though.

Quote

1 year ago

-Coya

How about having 2 pc's?I've got a lap top and pc in my room so i could just play on 1 and watch stream on other...Its quite possible to cheat in online tournaments...

Quote

1 year ago

oni_link

who cares?
if my enemy cheats he doesnt deserve the win,that will be stuck in his mind and haunt him every day!

Quote

1 year ago

#10

Small stars represents one level - This user is on level 4

Loda

none of the top teams would sink to this lvl, and the rest are just to bad to win no matter the hellp =)

www.dingblog.com

Quote

1 year ago

#11

P13

Me and my team used to play together at a Cyber Cafe.

We could easily ask for a sixth person to log in a computer next to us and join the stream, so we could see what the other team is doing.

We never did. And I believe most of the serious team wouldn't, also.

I don't know how this works in general, but in Brazil we sometimes have some special rules for TS/Ventrilo when playing championships, mostly restricting number of people in the room, and stablishing that there must always be an admin of the championship together listening what people are talking there, so this problems are minimized.

Quote

1 year ago

#12

Big stars represents five levels - This user is on level 5

GanjaMAN

When I'm streaming I set 2 min delay to reduce this opportunity.

This post was edited by its author @ 1 year ago

Quote

1 year ago

#13

blah278

Basically if I got it right from all those answers, bottomline is "Yes you can certainly do it, but we have to trust in the "ethic, professionalism, honesty, love and friendship" of the concerned teams and players to not actually use it".

ALRIGHT THEN ! I feel all warm inside and reassured already ...

But, back here ... you know, on planet Earth, I STRONGLY agree with #4 and #7 on putting a regulatory 6 min delay buffer on ALL online tournaments WTV and GTV stream transmissions.

6 mins is good, because wards last 6 mins.

And I would like to remind some of our "idealist" friends that there is a REASON why they are always referees and rules IN THE FIRST PLACE. And this reason is called human nature. When you have international fame on the line (and sometimes even money), you simply can't trust a bunch of Ego-Heavy 14/25 years old "very intellectualy mature adults" Dota players (Yeah, right ...) to be apostles of purity and honestly, or you're really dillusional.

Rules are made so that doubts and speculations are put to an end, in all equity for all concerned parties.

So, I VERY STRONGLY suggest the admins of those tournaments to enforce this change as soon as possible.

Please be all witnesses that I did my best to rationaly try and warn this community and those admins about this matter, here and now, at this date. The rest is not of my responsability anymore.

This post was edited by its author @ 1 year ago

Quote

1 year ago

#14

blah278

#12

And you did good and should be commended on that. Put it to 6 mins so that this problem can be left to rest forever and talk about it to your fellow league admins and streamers.

Quote

1 year ago

#15

ArgentinaMonkey

I would assume this probably happened a few times,specially among not-known teams that are playing against top teams therefore getting only a few chances to prove how good they are (LAB vs DDT, for one,had extremely suspicious events that made me think maphack was involved,I couldn't find any clicks on the fog,though its not like maphacks don't have the "do not select units on the fog" option :)

This post was edited by its author @ 1 year ago

Quote

1 year ago

#16

Anima.pk

Replays would reveal maphackers.

It takes 5 to win and 5 to lose

Quote

1 year ago

#17

Big stars represents five levels - This user is on level 9

Small stars represents one level - This user is on level 9

Alyyx

Players who respect themselves don't do this... But there's always the possibility...

Quote

1 year ago

#18

Big stars represents five levels - This user is on level 7

Small stars represents one level - This user is on level 7

Garuda

#13 Good point really, but!
This has been going for quite some time now. Nobody complained about it, not that I heard of at least, before you. So, unless there some major proved case of cheating this way, I really doubt anything will be done about it. Ppl tend to correct mistakes once the demage is done already. Besides, Loda also said truth. And theres always a delay between the actual game and stream, its not big but its there. Guess that counts too.

To be a rock and not to roll

Quote

1 year ago

#19

bebemorto

the same ventrilo should be used by both teams, two separate channels ofc, and provided by the league. put the limit of 6 on each channel and a admin always listening to then

problem solved

Quote

1 year ago

#20

blah278

@19

Read my first message, I already answered that.

You can easily bypass mandatory ventrilo servers. Skype or any other Voice over IP software linked directly to one of the players can easily bypass any of that.

By the way, there is a point concerning all this discussion that seems to elude most of the people participating in that debate.

It's not a question of "real pros wouldn't do that" or even "I trust my teamates, they wouldn't do that or even tolerate it collectively, I can vouch for them, I can swear, etc etc ..."

This is NOT the question.

The question is, that only ONE GUY, beeing fed information directly and discretly via Skype by one of his personal friend watching the live broadcast, can TOTALY FUCK UP whole games. Let me explain to you how :

When you play Dota on a competitive level (and most pros will be able to confirm what I am about to say), a team don't just follow the captain like robots (even if he's responsible for the global strategy) but must collectively rely on the fast input of all team members, map pings, vocal warning ("no no, don't go there !") and such instantaneous data. Even the team captains take those collective datas, indirectly gathered and provided by his teamates, to formulate ponctual decisions and ganks calls.

Ok. Now ... Imagine you're playing with your trusted team members. You're one of the EU/US top team. You are proud. You cannot tolerate your team to cheat collectively, and you would never cheat yourself. This is the basic case that we take for granted, and that even myself consider to be true in the overwhelming majority of case. BUT, now consider this : If only one team member is being secretly and personnaly fed informations by his friend watching the live broadcast, via skype (in silent mode) and while being at the same time on the team's ventrilo, there's going to be TWO logical consequence, and they are TOTALY UNEVITABLE BY ANYONE :

1) None of the other 4 team members will ever know it. They cannot vouch or not about this, and they cannot speak about it or deny it because they don't even know that it's taking place. As far as the others are concerned THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW THAT THEY ARE CHEATING AND WILL NEVER KNOW IT. Yeah, that's tuff to digest ...

2) The 5th guy, who's cheating and being fed precious, almost live, informations about enemy team map movements, wards and such, feed his team with insidious, and purposedly innocent (but crucial !) datas. Just at the right time, not too often. How many time one of us in a team pinged some place and said : "I'm sure they are here !" or "They are roshaning !". You're not going to suspect your teamate of cheating just because at a crucial time, he pinged somewhere on the map and tells you he has a gut feeling that this or that is taking place and you find out he's right. Especially not if you're a big team. You're going to put this on the "skill" or your teamate ! And I would like to add here, that the fact that HE IS REALLY SKILLED or not in the real game DOES NOT MATTER HERE. This is really the WEAKEAST argument I ever heard ! It's been proven many times, in previous debates, that a Skilled pro using a regular maphack, for exemple, is 10 000 times more dangerous than a noob using a maphack, AND EVEN HARDER TO DETECT, you see what I mean ?! And you're especially NOT gonna suspect your teamate of cheating if he's playing support, and buy wards and go everywhere on the map exactly when the other team warder has just laid fresh wards, put a sentry himself (like he's not cheating), and then killing the other teams observer wards. EVERY TIME. You're not gonna suspect that your support is cheating. No. He bought plenty of sentries. He walked with his little feets to the other teams wards, dropped a sentry, and attacked the ennemy wards. Except he does it everytime the enemy put up a ward somewhere. Except he always happen to put his sentry at the right place. Except he's fucking cheating and gaining TON of map advantage and saving TON of gold by not placing sentries where there is nothing.

Now who the fuck is gonna detect that ?!

Get real peoples. I'll bet money that this is taking place. "Pros" teams or not. Wake up, being pro in dota refer to their ingame ability skill-wise, it doesn't mean AT ALL they a religious saints (far from it, sometimes ...). Whoever believes this is fucking stupid. Only one guy, unknown by his other teamates bring TREMENDOUS game advantages to his team. Especially in VERY HIGH LEVEL games, where both teams are very close skill-wise, and where games are won by just a slight advantage. This is ALL the advantage you need and way more ! One team member can decide to go this way alone, bring victory to his team, and never get ANY PUBLIC SHAME for it. "Public shame". This is the keyword here. And the thing that would stop most team from actually doing that, because nobody believes any of the top team would internaly and collectively decide to go for this. It's too risky because team rosters change everytime, and if one guy change team, things would become known. No No, this is more subtle than that.

Only one guy is enough with this to brings victory and fame to his team (and to himself !) and with ZERO risk of public shame. I say, this is too good to pass for "some" people, and if admins don't take this seriously, they are unconscious. Wake up peoples, it's 2010 and those "pro" players are not all Boyscouts and paragon of vertue. It's not "church school", it's Dota competition, and some people will stop at nothing to win the very important games, if they know that their can be NO PUBLIC DRAWBACK, AND NO OFFICIAL CONSEQUENCES EVER, to them. And this, is unfortunately the exact case here.

Bottomline :

1) Only one guy acting alone.

2) Rest of team is totaly unaware and keeps believing "Hey guys, we rox so much !"

3) NO risk and drawback WHATSOEVER for the guy doing it solo. No consequences, No public shame, No possible referee actions, NO NOTHING ! It's basicaly free, as long as there is a near live broadcast.

4) Too good to pass in very important teams clash where there is PERSONAL HATRED between certain players and some people will stop to nothing to win this particular game.

Now, anybody who can't realize the logical conclusion of this FOUR points equation, needs a reality check. Personnaly I've done my best trying to explain this in the most clear and logical terms, if peoples still don't get it, I cannot help them more than this, and it's not my problem anymore. What I know, is that If I was an online league admin OR even a serious team captain who wants to preserve his team from this kind of insidious actions I would request an incompressible 6 mins delay buffer in all the games I'm participating in, starting from today.

That's it.

This post was edited by its author @ 1 year ago

Quote