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Is the current game mode outdated? Article by Drayich

Posted by Calum "The_Ganksta" Gittins 3 years ago
Time to let APXL go?

I remember when AP was used as the mainmode of DotA. The picks where somewhat the same, even if T_T did do some different things with their globalstrat. Then someone came up with the idea of APXL, the mode where you are allowed to ban enemy heroes, and this was a huge sucess. From that moment its pretty much downwards. We see the same heroes getting banned over and over again, with some variations naturally, but overall i think the most heroes are the same. Then someone added another ban (just as the game was getting more interesting, now your able to remove one more hero).

The pickingphase of an highlevel APXL game is really interesting for some people, and really tiredsome for others. I guess we are 'wasting' atleast 30minutes each game just for the picks - this isnt making the game attractive for me as a familyman - for the spectators - and for the players. It simply takes too much time. A bo3 game makes 3x30minutes picks, thats 1h30minutes ONLY FOR CHOOSING HEROES! And on top of that finding valid hosts and starting up the game and a complete evening is gone just for one bo3 game.

I remember when someone had the idea to make a -RD (Randomdraft) tornament. And everyone was afraid that this would lead to games getting imbalanced with rigged pools and so on. I'd agree that the balance would be different in a RD game compared to a APXL game, but it wouldnt be much if you were allowed to ban one hero per team, and then having the picks done live in the game, natuarlly without any pauses, would even if there is a "rigged" pool make it much more harder to find the PERFECT combination, and it would also make the games a hell lot more interesting.

My idea would be like this

- Start the game, enter -RD and pause the game.
- Countdown 5 minutes, for both teams to make agreement on what hero they wanna ban, but also having some kinda recap for what heroes to pick
_ When 5minutes passed, captains of both teams enter their ban in allchat. This should be entered at the same time (meaning also the same hero could be banned)
- Start the picks, no pauses, just pick as its your turn and five minutes later the game is going.



So what about the 'rigged pools'?

If you pause a RD game instantly you wont from start know whos getting the firstpick, hence the pool is less rigged. You simply remove the hero that you belive make the pool rigged or the hero that you dont wanna risk having to give away
And remember due to the lack of time you will have more issues thinking what lines they will run, are they going with a hero in forest? Is Warlock laning or is he solo? And with the swapping before gamestart you will soon realise that this game will be much more about playing then about picking - even if you also can fail miserably in RD.

This could make people see the game less strategic, in one way maybe you have less chance using your overpowered mindgame, however now its a bigger chance that you can create brilliant solutions that your enemy never can forsee, and i belive that this would make the game a hole lot more interesting.

And if you compare RD to a APXL pool the difference isnt so big as you might think. APXL is about getting the best hero as firstpick, the two secondbest as secondpick and the two best after that etc. Thats the same thing with -RD1ban, just that it takes less time.


So why still 1 ban?

Simply since it might make the pools less rigged. If there is a broodmother a omniknight a visage or something like that standing completely out as 'carryer' or 'ganger' or 'warder' the balance of the game is easily obtained with banning that hero if you want to. And if you are playing against a better team you might even screw the ban just to get a shot at having a stronger lineup then your enemy.


We've for sucha long time seen picks determine games even in APXL. We give the teams playing 90minutes for a BO3 to proove their pickworthyness. What about giving the teams 10minutes, and i bet you all that the level of "skill" will be equal overtime, we just waste less time and we win more playtime. And we get to see some more different heroes. This will also definently make the game much more attractive for leagues and tornaments. Think about it!


 

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comments
1
#51 DasEndE 3 years ago
Hm I think it would be nice 2 see some rd games, but i like -apcl much more.
So I think there should be some "little" Tournaments with rd 2 see how it works. If it´s nice 2 watch you could found a new league, like pick-league, but with rd mode. And if this works u could expand...

But the big problem in rd is, that just 1 ban is too much, cuz the pool gets very small. So u could outpick the enemy easily and he can ff after 20 min, if there are many "crap" heros.

I like apxl and I dont want to miss it but I want more leagues, not just 4 the top-clans, so I support the idea but in a new league!
5
#52 Amock 3 years ago
i must admit i only read the comments of the ppl that i assume have enough dota knowledge to give reasonable answers and i can quite get drayichs point, but its obvious to me that taking such a big step and making such a vast step would crucially affect the dota balance, which is hard enough to hold these days (elseway there wouldnt be 8 bans per game), its also a fact that dota is listed as a "spectator unfriendly" game, which imo only applies for ppl that are not familiar with the game, whatsoever the introduction of a reasonably decided timelimit per pick/ban would improve the momentary situation, so i think this could be a first step, overall i think that dota lacks "professionality" in that aspect, tournaments take weeks/months, games are postponed x-times and teams wait for their opponents for more than 2 hours, those problems affect the dota-scene a lot more than the element of picking the heroes....


just my 2 cents, like it or gtfo.
1
#53 uss.silentone 3 years ago
ye such mode in competetive play could make the dagger nerf be revoked so im supporting it.

dynamic / less timeconsuming dota / highskill / medium strategy based > total strategybased / borign to watch / farmfest/without gangs.

1st is rd mode with old dagger and 1 bans per team second is new version with today's apxl mode.

if some1 disagerees he must be blind.
5
#54 Amock 3 years ago
or mby he just has some common sense....
1
#55 uss.silentone 3 years ago
#54 like the person who is running after good players licking their asses since 1 year and still lacks any dota sence and skill ? oh its you amock , hi ! i REALLY didint ment you in the first sentece ...


not
1
#56 Pho3niX 3 years ago
im agree with soth, should be bo1 , finals bo3 only.
and about bans/picks maby it is the interesting part to ban and pick ?..
do you really want to remove it? think about it
2
#57 Aiua 3 years ago
Go mm, the only mode perfectly balanced. \o/

Btw, with the old dagger, games were not boring to watch, but they were REALLY boring to play ...
1
#58 knotir 3 years ago
imo banning\picking heroes is important as game play, and for having good heroes you should know your enemy and what you're going to do.
when we was playing with a strong team, 2 or 3 days before the match, I thinked about the heroes and what I should do in game.

I think it's attractive now.
If you think its going to be a boring one, IceFrog will change the stable version and its gonna be new. :-)

See diffrents between 48.b and 52.e
its completely a new game.
#59 StaedarN 3 years ago
bring the blinker back + make necesarry nerf/buff and continue xl. whats boring about watching the dota is i cant c any skilled moves with a blinker any more, the game was more advanced and skillfull back then (think fast etc) fun 2 watch O_o
#60 StaedarN 3 years ago
wops, som1 allready wrote that lol
1
#61 Pestilence 3 years ago
nice read _b
3
#62 wD)Mogyi( 3 years ago
I like the idea.And it was always part of the sport that after changes those win who can adapt fast, not those who are the best which makes its colorful
1
#63 Lypse 3 years ago
apxl in .52 is the best balanced mode. But its boring to watch loh last hit/denie during 40 mins. But balancing the game in the way of the watch pleasure decrease the importance of the trategy. So what to do ? nothing DotA in apxl is now so well balanced, icefrog did good. Spectators just have to accept this.

Btw hope you understood, my english is pretty bad :d
1
#64 Praemium 3 years ago
I guess we could add another league with -RD modes, but at all cost keep the
-apxl Tournements too, afterall, there's -Ar tournements so why not add a
-RD aswell?

And maybe turn stable into 6.48b again and let the dagger keep it's balance.
5
#65 Amock 3 years ago
just to bring this to an end:

i dont kiss feet, i lick em :P

apart from that your just a poor "im banned everywhere cuz of my dumbness" kid so gtfo :D
1
#66 Drayich 3 years ago
anyone reading this; RD might not be the best soltion for the "long pickingphases and pregame timewaste"
BUT

You cannot say that RD with 1ban each (after you see whos firstpick, ive changed my mind) is imbalanced

APXL is about Milking about the best possible combination and heroes outta all heroes remaining
RD is EXACTLY the same thing just that the "heroes remaining" is not predecided but ranomized
1
#67 anubis 3 years ago
My Solution:
-apxl ingame with 40 sec. per ban + 40 sec. (instead of 20 sec.) each to pick = 12 min. total
1
#68 uss.silentone 3 years ago
#65 i prefer to be banned cuz im not licking every1s asses than to be 2nd clown of dota community right after papaya.

and afaik im not banned anywhere atm so i rly dont get your empty point. mb straight up your facts before u speak ?
#69 xinn 3 years ago
The main problem of dota is that it isn't spectator friendly. Of course long picking is one side of the medal but there are also other things which need to be changed in case of making Dota a serious ESport title. What is the main problem? The game lasts too long and it's all about farming. The proportion between ganging&killing heroes and farming should be changed. Spectators don't want to watch a game where almost everything is about farming. We can see a games with only 30 kills / 70minutes nowadays. There is not much action there. Is it fun to watch for non-dota oriented spectator? Not really.

Lets take a look at other big ESport titles.
Counter-Strike - round last ~1.5 min, bo1 is played to 15 won rounds by a team. There is always a lot of action and it's really fun to watch. I really enjoyed ESWC finals where MYM played vs estro. And well.. It was played on ~5-6 AM CET...
Warcraft - the game lasts ~25minute. A lot of action, really fun to watch. Nothing more to add because i've never played it. I'm one of those who have bought Warcraft3 for Dota.
Starcraft - pretty much the same.
Trackmania - It's rather new game. The first time i've watched it was on ESWC. Really nice graphic, a lot of action, jumps, overtakes...

I was asked once to organize a Lan for Dota on one of the biggest polish lans - GameFestival ( gf2008.pl ). The main organizator asked me how many computers and time i will need for 8-slots tour. When i told him that one BO1 game lasts around 90minutes the conversation was over... We didn't have Dota on GameFestival...

#44 hit the nail on the head. Dota should be more gang-oriented game although his idea would change the gamestyle completely but... it will propably make the game shorter. I would like to see it introduced in one of beta versions for testing purpose. The another, simply, idea is to increase a bounty for killing enemy heroes.

Drayich's idea isn't really bad but i would change the pool and number of picks. 30 heroes in pool and 3 bans/team would make such game rather balanced and more fun to watch. Of course there is always a Luck-factor but don't we have it in other games for example Warcraft?
#70 g3d 3 years ago
When i read the article i see drayich talking about 2 problems. The time issue, and the same heroes being picked over and over.
Many of the comments to this article has been solutions on how to solve the time issue.

---

There was a guy suggesting that the heroes will be set up as races and the different taverns, and you then pick a "race" at the start, and only choose heroes from that tavern. First of all it sounds alot like magic cards, and second i really doubt it will be possible to balance.
The time it would take to make this option balanced would be crazy, so i believe that other solutions would be just as good, but only taking half the time.

Another guy suggested that perhaps 3 maps should be made. I agree that it would be a good idea, a bit like CS where a CW is played over 2 maps where each team then choose which map they want play. But it will just be to time consuming for IceFrog, and at some point it wouldnt be DotA, it will be more like creating a new game. So imo then we should just stick to this one map, since it is the game we play.
And i believe IceFrog is having a hard time already trying to balance one map.

---

First when i read Drayichs new idea, i thought that it was really a great idea. But the more i think about it, the more imbalanced it gets in my head.
I know from own experience that the pool rarely is balanced, but ofc never tried this in a serious match, so cant really compare it.
But even with 1 ban, then there is still a huge chance of the pool being imbalanced. What if there are 2 crazy carry heroes, and the teams randomly decide to ban the same, so the first picking team gets him(im aware that its unknown at that point who starts). Are we then just suppose to say "Oh well, thats the mode - bad luck" or ? :S

As for the time issue im still new with the -apxl, so i must admit im one of those who join the irc channels to watch the live picking while being on skype with some of my friends talking about what the others are going to pick(like watching some sport in the tv with your friends). But sure, i understand that it wouldnt be bad to make the picking take shorter. But i really dont think that -apxl with just a limited time to pick would improve the game.

If i compare -apxl contra -rd1ban(-rdxl? :P) to some IRL sport, it will be like a soccer match where a team just have to random pick their players out of the team, instead of taking their best players. Then what will you do when you get 2 goalkeepers? hope that one of them is able to play somewhere else in the field?
It will take some of the "professionalisme", if you can call it that, out of DotA.

But ofc, if the mode is changed in tournaments to rd, then people will just accept it as a part of the game and play it that way. If rd had been invented before ap, then people wouldnt have a problem with it, since they wouldnt know better (i know this sound really negative towards the rd mode, not ment that way, just not entirely sure on how to express it).

My suggestion would be more like a combination of -apxl and -rd1ban, or maybe just a big improvement to -rd1ban.
The pool of heroes in -rd could be increased with maybe 5 heroes, and then to make the pool less random, 33% of the heroes could be strenght based, 33% intelligent based and the last 33% agility.
Im aware that not all strenght based units are tanks or initiaters or whatever you want to call it.
But since people sometimes play heroes differently, you cant divide them into groups like: Carry, supporter, initiater.
So overall just a larger pool of heroes for rd, and then balance between the "orientation" of the heroes.
And then as last thing still have the 1 ban :)

I agree that it would be fun to see some new heroes being used in DotA. So changing the system has my vote. But not jus as a new system being used instantly. Would need alot of changes first.

- g3d

EDIT: Sorry if i went to much off-topic at some point in this comment
EDIT: #69 is talking abit about the same in the end of his post as i am - i did not read this since i was writing my post when he posted his.
1
#71 rbr.godfather 3 years ago
take a big rest. nice comments
1
#72 Satiban 3 years ago
Drayich for president! good idea
#73 4Sale)EDC 3 years ago
Ok its a nice idea by Drayich..Not sure could it work because alot of other teams like apxl more..but i agree whit drayich it would be nice to try somthing new..and rd whit 1 ban could be a good league mode for sure
#74 kiswany 3 years ago
imo i think that -rd will make the game more intresting, but on the other hand it would let the element of luck make a big deffrence in the game becouse the game would deppend on the hero pool and on who gets the first pick.

i really think the -apxl is is a good idea but if they find a way to reduce the time taken for bans & picks
1
#75 GOlem- 3 years ago
The problem is which leageu will take -rd as leageu-mode?
Even though the idea is nice!
 

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